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O F T H E 

Friendly Debate^ 

By the fame K\xtkov.2)'9U,'^' 

rov. I4."i<5. lA wife man fiareth and iifarteth from evil, 
tut tbejoal ra^eth and is confident. 


oftdotj, Printed for R. Royfton, Bookfeller to 
ic King's moft Excellent Majeftyjiddp. 

Digitized by the Internet Archive 
in 2013 

To the Readers. 

I Shall only detain you fo long as to tell jou 
a fevp things that concern the Motives to 
this Work, and the Author of it. For the 
former , take it from me (who know better than 
iny body elfe) they are none but the ^Authors 
love to 'truth and Peace ; and his Charity to 
well-meaning and abufed people. Think what 
ou pleafe ; / am fure he is not naturally [ovar a 
n quarrelfome y much lefs angry with any man 
meerly becaufe he differs from him. He hath 
"jot been exafperated by contending, nor put out 
f humour by fierce difputings ; for he hath no 
Difference with any man living ; he neither 
'Oves Divifons , nor lives by them. He hath 
ts much refpeB alfo and regard at he dejires : 
^0 much as may fe cure him from the temptation 
f envying , and the mean arts of fee king to 
rain a reputation to himfelf by difpar aging o- 
her men, jis for hopes of preferment i which 
hne havefaid are his end , hefides that heftu- 
iioufly conceAles himfdf , I declare y that if he 

Jt Z wsrt 

To the Readers,' 

were capalle or defirousof it, he would not he 
at fo much pains tofeek it, 'jtnd as hefeeks 
not to gain any worldly thing hereafter by his 
writing , fo he lofes nothing at prefent by that 
which he writes againfl. For neither he, nor 
any of his friends {that he knows of) receive the 
leji prejudice by any mans Non-conformity , or 
feparated ^SWeeiings ; andfohejhouldnothave 
taken any notice of them , if Religion had not 
been concern d» But he is very fen f hie that this 
fuffers very much ; and that which many Mini- 
fters who keepfeparatcd jiffemhlieSy' cannot con- 
demn y is condemned , nay defpifed , by thofe 
that follow them. For there is undoubted evi- 
dence that their not coming to the Common-pray- 
ers , and not declaring plainly the true reafon 
of it, makes mahyflofid aloof of, and abhor our 
Service, as if it were the Mafs, The people are. 
feldom at leifure to ex^amine the Reafon of 
things , nor apt to put themf elves upon that 
work without much urging : but they are always]^ 
ready to follow the example of thofe whom they 
admire , and the lejs they knovp why^ the more 
forward they are to out-do the Copy they chufe to 
imitate. So that the ^iinifters not doing 
what they can in compliance with the efiablifh'd 
vrd^r , and not declaring fwcerely the caufes 


To the Readers? 

vphytheydonoty is interpreted to a farther ah- 
horrenccy than they {if they durfifpeak out) ara 
willing to ojvn. When they do hut fignifie their 
difguji y and that their pallate is not pleafed ; 
their follojvers are naufeated prefently , and 
their fiomacks turnd. If they make an halt, or 
a (lep hack ; thofe get the hit between their 
teeth : they kick and fling and run away. Now 
though this bogling and fiarting may he looki 
upon by many credulous and well meaning peo^ 
pie, as the effeB of a commendable caution y or 
a quick fenfe and perception of an approaching 
mt [chief y and of an exaBer difference they 
make between good and evil, than others do ; 
yet experience tells u^ the contrary, that the. 
more ordinary caufe is defeB of eye-fight and 
corifufed apprehenfions of things, Ignorance and 
humour, if not reflivenefi and Jadifh tricks. For 
to give but one palpable in fiance of this among 
many ; have you not ohferved at the^uneral of a 
Friend when a Sermon has beenpreacht, hew 
apart of the company , as fnon as they come to-> 
ward the Church door , prefently draw off and 
Ceparate from the reft , as if they were going 
about fame Idolatrous fervice ? Would not a 
(iranger think that fame noifomc and offenfivs 
vapour or fiiflingfmoak afiended from our De- 

Jl 3 votioni, 

To the Readers" 

'Vottons , which made thefe men fojhte to enterl 
till hy thefinging of a Pfalm they had notice gi- 
ven that the air was clear and fit to heath in, 
and then it may he they came in i But when 
lyes the offence all this while , if we may he wor- 
thy to under fi and it ? Is it in the white garment 
wherein the ^Unifier officiates? But why, i 
pray, is this more trouhlefome (unlefs to thi 
Tricks I [poke of) than a black one ? There is 
nothing frightful fure in three fentences of Scrip- 
ture, in reading aP[a\m of Dawid, or a leffon 
of St, Paul ; andyet this is all, fave the Glo- 
ria Patri at the end of the Pfalm , which one 
would think might efcape with fair quarter , ef- 
pecially now that their purfuit feems to be fo 
hot after the fre(h game of Socinianifme. 
know there are feme fober perfons who diffent 
from us, that are not thus skittijh ; and finding 
them humble, mode ft and not cenf or ions , I not 
only love but honour them with all my heart. 
There are others alfo , who from the womb have 
been taught to ft art afide and to abhor our fer- 
vice ; and being unable to reafon and uncapahU 
cf better information, Ipitty them very much. 
Let them but be quiet and not feek to govern 
us by their fancies and prejudices, and I for my 
part (halt not look upon their averpon as a vice, 


To the Readers. 

fthcy mil not account it their great Ver- 
ne, For vrhat if fome Children receive im- 
ireffons and inclinations in their infancy from 
their Mothers hig-hetlied frights or longings, 
rrhich they carry with them to their graves t 
What is the World concern d in this, or in thofe 
mens unaccountable Antipathies ? Is any man 
more commendable/(?r them ? Surely no ; but 
oftentimes more tiouhlcCovnc. Tou have feen 
it's likely a perfon {pardon the infiance lufe, 
becaufe it's familiar ) as foon Of the Cheefe af- 
ter Meal has been fet on the board, prefently 
make [curvy faces and change colour, flop hit 
tiofe, or run in hasl out of the room ; yet neither 
the Mafler orguefls are farther concern d in 
this, than topitty, or perhaps but fmilc or 
(lightly complement the mans infirmity 'y and 
tione forbears the more to tafl that hath a needt 
or a good likij-7g. But you never h cardie f any 
fuch man who, in a conceited humour, thought 
fit in this cafe, that his particular averfion 
Jhould prefcribe to all others; or raifed fierce 
dilutes about it in every company ; and con- 
tended that this was no Primitive food, or at 
leafi that our way was not the Primitive way 
cf making it : that indeavoured bufily to make 
a party againfl it among the indifferent and un- 
\A 4 inclind 

iTo the Readers.' 

incllnci either to love or hate it : inuch le^that 
reviled and gave reproachful Nick-names to 
thofe that ufed it, and fought for Orders to 
hanifh it from every Table. If you could fup- 
fofefuch prodigious folly, you would not blame 
the Neighbourhood, especially the Officers, if 
they were concern din it, or any that /hould re- 
prefent the ridiculoufneJ?,or the malice offuch 
an undertaking. I know the infiance is not con- 
fiderable enough to be apply ed to all things at 
this day contefied, but to a great many it may ; 
and exprejfes well enough the humour of thofe, 
who, according to their breeding, feemwith an 
equal paflion to oppofe every thing they diflike, 
even to the colour of a Garment, or thefafhion 
of a Girdle. Tou have enough (Readers) 
concerning the Motives to this continuation of 
the Debate, whenyou are only told this farther, 
that the Juthor having heard of feme excepti- 
onsagainfi the former Book, thought good to 
Jnfwer, and ( as they deferve ) to [hame them 
i^this. It is like iomc oio\xi deceived Bre- 
^ c- u thren will hold this labour damna- 
Confutation blc atiQ execrable, as being be- 
ofthe BrowS ftowed in their opinion, againft the 
'^^ ^' '• Church of Ghrift, againft the 
Saints, and Children of God and his Holy 

truth :i 

To the Readers.' 

truth : To rrhom I dnftver as the Nonconform 
mijisdidto ths Old Separatijfs, Let my 
tongue cleave to the roof of my Mouth when 
I endeavour to fpeak> and my Pen fticlc to 
my fingers when 1 attempt to write any 
thing, againft the Church , the Children, 
or the Truth of God. But the Errors and 
follies in thofe rrhom I think to havefome good- 
ne^in therrty may I hope he reproved^ without 
\heing thought to reprove their goodne{i : l^ fides y 
hy endeavouring to keep them from being Right- 
eous overmuch, I take a courfe to preferve 
them from becoming too Wicked. 

jind now I believe nothing would be more 
grateful to fome than to know the Authors 
name : but I have nothing to fay to them, but 
that i^ is an impertinent curio ftj to inquire any 
farther after him, fince he hath no mind to be 
known, and fince there is no need of it. For his 
name can add no credit or firength to his Rea- 
fons ; and as for matters ofFaB, he hath di- 
reBed you where to find them, without inquir- 
ing after him to be re folved about them. But 
fany body think it good manners to inquire into 
that which others would have kept fecret ; Xet 
\ am fure it argues great want of good breeding 
Jo fay no 7nore) to befpatter {asfo?ne have 

done ) 

To the Readers' 

done ) this and the other perfon whom they only 
conjecture to he the jiuthor ; Laying to their 
charge things that they know not. Let me 
advice them to he more Civil ; Since 1 am fare 
they do not yet know me, nor I helieve, ever 
Jhalty unle(il pleafe; and fince by difiurhing 
themfehes and others ftill in this kind, they are 
like to reap nothing fave their own further 
Jhame. I end with the good Counfel which 
Mr, Whittingham long ago concluded a 

* Troubles Letter of his withal "^ Know be- 

at Frandfort, fore you iud2e,and believe not all 

Printed^ 1575, n • ^ 1 1 

liying tales ; keep one ear open, 
and report the belt. 

jipril 1$. 166 g. 


Tho. Tomkyns, K. R^^ in Chri(lo Patri 
ac Domino D^° Gilberto Divina Provi* 
dentid jfrchi-Ep, Cant, a Sacris Do- 


Apr. 24. i6'5p. ; 

Ex -3x1. Lambeth^ 

The Contents^. 

THeNon conformifts af- 
fected language and 
fooHQi imitation of Scrip- 
ture-phrafe noted pag.ijX 
About taking Gods name 
in vain, and breaking the 
third Command 3,4,&c. 
The Covenanters highly 
guilty of it 8,&c. 

How Ur.Cafc taught them 
to take the Covenant 13,14 
( Some pleaded lleligion 
^or breaking it 15 

I Contrary to the foleran 
rroteftation taken by both 
[Houfes before i6,&c. 

Non-conformlfis offended 
It the Friendly Debate, and 
ivhy 2.1 

The Apoflles fenfe of^;r- 
'-ng no offence, iCor. 10. 32. 
The Debate not guilty of 
Ncn-conformifts did not 
c heretofore that they 
:ght to forbear reading 
oraraon -Prayer , becaufe 
tome faid it gave them fcan- 
al ^ 24, 25 

Great fcandal of Schifm 
Ofgrieving the Godly 27 
Non-conformifts guilty of 
■ in the proper fenfe by ca- 
ing fcorn on Divine Ser- 


vice and our Governors 

Mr. O0> Eridzc an inftance 
of this 30,&c. 

Juft feverity agalnft fuch 
defamers petitioned for by 
themfelves heretofore 32,35 

Anfwer to another obje- 
ftion againft the Friendly 
Debate for being writD'ia- 
logue-wifej^a 34 

Non-conformiftshave writ 
Dialogues too , and thofe 
veryabfurd 34>35j&c. 

Mr. Hughes's Conference 
noted ihtJ, 

And two mors Ancient, 
one of which teaches to de- 
pofc Kings, ^c. 4ij43 

The Non-conformifls pre- 
tence of not being guilty in 
breaking the Lav. 3, becaufe 
they ire ready to fufferthc 
penalties, anfwered 44*45 

Their prefumption that it 

is his Majefties pleafure they 

{hould take this Liberty a- 

gainil the La^vs , anfwered 


Their change of Princi- 
ples, who held heretofore, 
that the Law was the Kings 
Superiour 52.,&c. 

Mr. T^J. Bi-iJgef remark- 
able for this Do6trine in a 
Book of his publifhed by 

t n E CO 

Authority 54>&c. 

More "inftances of their 

changing for their intereft 


This remarkable in the 
Army Saints <5i,&c. 

Who writ after the Copy 

fet them by their Superiors 


That the Author of the 
Debate is of a harfti, bitter 
and jeering fpirit, anfwered 
at large ^9* to']'] 

Railing not the better, 

becaufe in Scripture phrafe 


Some inftances of Non- 
conforraifts reviling lan- 
guage, the better to (hew 
whence the prefent railers 

learnt theirs 


Reflections upon a paf- 
^ fageinMr. C?p 82,&c. 

An inftance of fan(5tified 
wit as they call it 85,85 

Jome famous Avw Eng- 
land preachers guilty of foul 
.language 88 

That it hath wofuUy in- 
fe(3:ed the people is appa- 
rent 89 
And it is an old difeafe 
How they were ferved in 
their kind 9X,P3,&c. 
' The Author falfely accu-^ 
fed of writing out of Ma- 
lice, ^f. 10I,&C. 

N r E N 1' S. 

How the Non conformlfls 
defpife thofe that are not of 
their party io<5 

The Authors moderation 
inhiscenfures 108 

How he hath dealt with 
Mr.-Bn%? 108,109 

Hi sway and fpirit further 
difcovered iii,ii2,&c. 

Particularly, that it is An- 
tlchyijiian and fchifraatical, 
as appears by the Jermon of 
ChetwoWitnefTes ii9,&c. 

His dangerous dodtrine 
about their power to difturb 
the ftate,C5'r. I20,&c. 

His prefixing the time for 
it out of the Rev:;!, ii^.&c. 

How often they have 
been deceived in their con- 
jedures I24,i25,&c. 

About this time I3i,i32,&c, 

The danger of interpre- 
ting every judgment that be- 
fals, in favour of their con- 
ceits I28,I29,&C. 

A rare interpretation of 
the prophecies forenamec 
from 135. to 14: 

A reflection upon thofe 
bold deceivers 142,14; 

The caufe of thefe com 
ceits 14; 

Their prefumption thaj 
their platform (hould be 
pattern to all Churches 

Mr.OJehis high opinion 

.7 H E CO 

of the Covenant iSijiSi 

His, and Dr. J'Tz/A.-m/owi, 

and fome of the Scots and o- 

ihers opinions of us iSii 


And of the favours they 

receive from others i6o 

Of their Canting phrafes, 

as Gcncration-viorky vsitnef- 

Qng tiwc from \6\, to \l6 

Dr. Wilkinfom confidence 

noted i68.i<59 

How they have (liifted and 

changed phrafes to ferve 

heiriurn 170/0 178 

Of the power of phrafes 

hinder men from obfef- 

ng how they have been 

heated i73>&c. 

The power they fancy they 

avetodeflroy us i78,&:c. 

Their opinion of their 

:nowledge and worth 181, 


Of their praftice and 

kill in expounding works 

f providence 185, &c. 

1 heir people not more 

nowing than ours 194, 


Many know not whac that 

which they cry out againfl 


Inftances in Popery, fu- 

rllition , Will-worfhip 

x/.'»J. 6c204,2.05,&C. 

About forms ofprayer 207 
Their forms of railinr» 


N 7 E N7 S, 

which they ufe even in pray- 
er,^f. 2o8,&c. 

Their fmallskill,fave on- 
ly in phrafes 2i3,&c. 

As appears by their eafie 

turning to the wildeft ^6t3 


A famous inflance of this 
mNt^w England 2i5,&c. 

Miftakes about the Spirits 
teaching and infpirati- 
onSy^c, 2ip 

This, together with the 
obfcurity oftheirDo<5trinea 
great caufe of peoples doubts 
and defertions 2.21 

An inftance of the intri- 
cate way of Mr. Hooker to fa- 
tisfie a doubting Chriftian 

And to bring it to the 
promife as he fpeaks 


Hence the 'Ncvi England 
whimfeyes 227 

Mr. J, Durants w^ay of 
comforting believers and 
opening AScriptures 229, 


They are no betteratre- 
folving doubts about parti- 
cplar adions 232,&c. 

How Religion hath been 
fpoiled of late and expofed 
to contempt 237,&c. 

Non-conforraifls great 
want of Modelly 243,&c, 


1 H E CO 

Concsrning eminent men 

Of judging others ; in 
what things we . may, in 
whatnot 24 9,6cc. 

Charity covers a Multi- 
tude but cannot or may not 
cover all fins a52..&c. 

By what means propha- 
nefs came to abound 254 ,&c. 

Publicans and Harlots,or 
Scribes and Pharifees,which 
the wdrfe 259 Ac 

The danger oF Schifm 
and feparated Congregati- 
ons . z66 

Mr. Bridge his vain con- 
ceit that we are angry be- 
caufe they withdraw from us 
and flight us 2(57,&c. 

How 2 Cor, 6. 17. is abu- 
fedby hira to countenance 
the fepar.^.tion 274 

By which and fuch like 
the old Brozi'tiffls and more 
ancient Donatifts jnftified 
their Schifm 278,&c. 

The wife and charitable 
courfes to which St. Aufiin 
dire(5tsus when men are ge- 
nerally bad 28l,&C. 

Mr.Cjf/Wn/ judgment of a 
true Church and reparation 
from it 283,&c. 

And Presbytenan Mini- 
fiers judgment 287 

cv^S. 19. p. doth not 
countenance the reparation 

N r E Nt S. 

The impertinent allegati- 
on of that place Rev, 14. 4. 
by Mr, Bnd^ 291 

How the people have 
been cheated with the noife 
of fuch words as Bab^lofi^Scc, 


And by other means 294, 

Of Idol Mlniflers 300, 

The folly of thofe who 
think our Miniflers (out of 
refpeit to themfelves) are 
troubled to fee people go to 
meetings 30$,3o<5 

The true reafon of their 
trouble, and the great dan- 
ger of feparation 307,308 &c 

Not only to thofe who are 
of it,but toothers 310,11,12 

The great extremities it 
hurries men into 313 

The Presbyterian' excufe 
that they feparate not from 
us as Antichriftian, confide- 
red 3 14 Ac 

It makes their caufe the 
worfcjif it be true 318 

\\ hich tenderconfcienc 
men (hould confider, efpeci 
ally remembring the iiTu 


The diforders among th( 
Independents, when in Hoi 
land 323,&c 

And more anciently a- 

7 R E C -N 

mong tlie old Separatifls 

325 to 330 

No fecurity againft the 

like,or worfe again 330,&c. 

In vain to bewail thefe 

Divifions unlcfs we take a 

courfe to amend them 333, 


"What belongs to private 

peifons to do in order to it 

335, 3^, &c. 

Not fludy fo much their 

Governors duty, as their 

own, and what that is 339 

to 343 

Of yielding on both fides 

The ancient Non-confor- 
mifts did not think they Hill 
ought to preach when they 
were deprived ; but the con- 
trary that they ought not 

The idle pretence of forae 
from that place, lYo ke to nje 
tf I preach not, confuted 
348 to 350 

And of not confulting 
whhfl/hand blood 351 

Non-conformifts do it too 
much 353 

Life why do they not 
ireach as the old Non-con- 
[Forraifts did, how lawful fet 
brmsare,&c. 353 

And teach this with great 

^arneilneis 357 

i^fpecially conGderlng how 

' r E N t s. 

miferably fome are prejudi- 
ced agatnft them 358,&c. 

That exception anfwered 
though a form be lawful yet 
ufclels 36c,&c. 

Some reflexions on a 
Book called Commonprayef 
Book Demotions Epfcopal De- 
iuftOfUjSLC, 36'2 

The prophanefs , and 

chollerick fcurrility of it 


The Ignorance and bold- 
nefs of thePrefacer 366,&c. 

Mr. Cariwyight not againft 
a fetformofPrayer,&c. 368 

How vainly he vapours 

with the name of Mr. Parker 


And abufes Mr. Green- 
ham 371 

But above all Dr. J. Key- 
noldsj who lived and dyed 
conformable in all things to 
the orders of the Church of 
England 372, 373,&c.' 

Some of the little reafon- 

ings in the book anfwered 


The abufe of a place of 
Scripture noted 37P 

The Liturgy fraels not of 
the Mafs book 380 

Antiquity of Liturgies by 
their own conFeffion 382,&c. 

The prefuraption and un- 
charitablenefe of this Wri- 
ter 384>&c. 

1" H E CO 

His main Argument an- 
fwered 387,&c. 

After all hisbluftering he 
allows a prefcribed form to 
fee lawful 3po.,&c. 

And is fain to wreft feme 
Scriptures in favour of con- 
ceived prayers 393 

His falfe arguing from 
yfr.7.3i.and fuch like pla- 
ces 394,&c. 

How that place Dcut, iz, 
32,is wont to be mifinterpre- 
ted 3P7,&:c. 

It was the manner of Mr. 

y,G, to fpeak confidently, be 

thecaufe never fo bad 401, 

402, &c. 

Non-conformifts general- 
ly guilty of too much confi- 
dence 404 

A grofs corruption of Dr. 
Sthbs his fouls conflict after 
his death,noted 405,4o5,&c 

Of Forms of Prayer and 
ofimpofingthem 409, &c. 

SmeEiymnutis aWovjGd im- 
pofitions in fome cafes 411 

The Presbyterians were 
againftaToUeration of the 
Independent way 4i3,&c. 

The Independents alfo 
impofe their own devices 5c 
have forms alfo,&c. 4i5»&c. 

Of Ghriftian Liberty, 

N t E N f S. 

The opinion of Mr. Durj^ 

and Mr.C'(?«0K,&c. about this 


Of Penalties 425 

The opinion of Prefby- 
terians and Independents 
formerly about them 427 

How the King himfelf 

was abridg'd of his Liberty 


The Independents for 
punifnments 432,&c. 

Some good Counfels out 
of Mr. Bernard 435,&c. 

How to behave our felves 

in doubts 440,&c. 

Some good Rules to guide 

our felves by 443,44 

What to do if we think 
that is finful which Autho* 
rity commands 445 

Rom. 1 4, 23. Whatsoever is 
not of faith ^V^«, opened 445 

Of fear to offend others 

The great want of charity 
and fuch like graces 449 
How thefe good Counfels 
were contemned by the fe- 
paratifts 450^ 

A defcriptixJn of them 45 r ' 
The Refolution of tlie 
Presbyterian heretofore a- 
bout Uniformity and Obedi- 
ence to Laws 454 

> *V v<*^ ^*\ • ^*^ ^*^ /*»^ v<^^ >r*'!i vt'!i • rl^ iTl'Tc /t'^x jT^'^i 



of the 

Friendly Debate. 

YO U are well met Neigh- 
bour, How do you? 
A^. C. Very well , 
through Mercy. Why do you figh ? 

C. To fee you fo far from mend- 
ing your Schifm, that you proceed 
to make it wider; and divide our 
very language. Why cannot you 
fpeak as the reft of your Neighbors, 
and fay , Well 1 thank Gad ? Is it a 
jcommendable thing to be Singular 
without any need ? and to feparate 
|from us even in your words and 
iforms of fpecch ? Or is this a part 
of the Language of Canaan (fo much 
B talkt 


A Continuation' of 

talk't of in the late times ) to be 
learnt ofallthofe, that will be ac- 
counted the People of God i 

N. C. Take heed how you fpeak 
again ft the //r^^/ of God. They are 
a peculiar people, and muft not do 
after the manner of the Nations. 

C. What Nations ? Do you 
take us to be all Heathens ? Nay , 
fuch Heathens from whom you are 
not only to feparate your felves, but 
utterly to root out ? 

N, C You carry our meaning 
too far. 

C No farther than fome of youi 
Secftdo, whom you have taught in 
a foolifli and dangerous manner tc 
imitate the Scripture Phrafe; anc 
to apply all that concerned Ifrael 
to Themfelves ; and all that con 
cern'd the feven accurfed Nations , o 
Egypt ani Babylon^ to their Neigh 

N.C. lamnotone of thofe; bu 
I and many others, whenwe ar 
askt about our welfare, dare no 
fpeak as you dO; left we Ihould tak 


the Friendly Debate. 

"iods fjdme in Vain : of which ymi 
now Ifrael was to be very careful. 

C. Is it to no purpofe then to 
hank God for our own and our Fa- 
lilies health? Or to pray God 
^ould be with our Friend when we 
leet or part with him? Perhaps 
on think that Boa::^ took Gods 
ame in vain, when according ro 
he Cuftome in Ifraelf he faid ro his 
eapers, the Lord he withyou : and 
hat they were Oflfendors for reply- 
ig, tke Lord hle(s thee. I doubt ere 
3ng you will refufe to fay upon oc- 
afion, GOD SJVE THE 
CING, for fear of taking Gods 
ame in Vain. 

N. C. Notfo. We can ufe fuch 
/ords when we are very ferious, but 
ot commonly. 

C. You made me believe , the 
aft time we talkt together, that 
!ou were commonly y if not alvrayest 
lierious. But now it feems the 
^^orld is altered with you. 

N. C. We are afraid you are not 
lierious ; but ufe thefe words fo 
' B 2 care- 

A Continuation of ^ 

carelefly that you break the Third 
Commatjdynent : upon which accountf 
we would teach you to refrain them.' 
C. You are excellent Interpre- 
ters of Holy Scripture! What 
rare Comment fhould we have upoi 
it, if all your Expofitions were but 
gathered and put together ? As you 
find words now ufed in common 
talk, fo they found to your fancy 
there : And this makes you take it 
fooft into your mouths in vain; I 
mean bcfides its purpofe and inten- 
tion. Alas! that you fhould be no 
better inftrudled than generally to 
entertain this conceit, that a man 
breaks the third Commandment, ii 
he mention the Name of God, with- 
out lifting up his Eyes, clapping hi? 
Hand on his breaft, orfome fignifi 
cation of Devotion ! This abfurc 
Fancy I have heard fome alledge ai 
aReafon why they would not lei 
their Children ask them Blefling 
/. €, defire them to pray to God fo 
them : And others have made thi 
the caufe why they would not teac! 


the Friendly Dehate, 

hem their Catechifm, nor any 
^rayers, left they fliould take Gods 
?ame in vain ; that is, in their fenfe, 
lake mention of it, and not mind 
,/hat they fay. 

j iV. C, I do not approve of fuch 
)pinions as thefe. 

I C. If you did, you w^ould con- 
emn your felf many hundred times 
laDay. For how oft do you tell 
s in common difcourfe, of ^^^ Peo- 
leofGod y and the things of God y 
nd tht Ordinance of God, not mind- 
ig that you mention his Name. 
Tay how many timxs have we heard 
pu fay in your Prayers, O 
ORD, O GOD (fomtimes 
nice in one fentence) when we 
ave great reafon to think you did 
3t know whether you ufed it fo ofc 
rno. Now, which will you fay ? 
hat you finned in this^or that ; it 
fufficient to have an habitual Re- 
uTence toward Almighty God, and 
:2vertoufe hisName in an irreve- 
::nt manner; though we do not al- 
ways adlually attend when we ufe it? 
I B 3 MCA 

6 'A Continuation of 

i\Z'. C. I have not confidered this ; 
but was alway bred in this Belief,! 
that we break the Third Command- 
ment when we ufe Gods name in 
common talk; and that's theRea- 
fon I did not anfwer you after th 
ufual manner. 

C It's well if you be not monl 
careful to keep the Commandmen! 
in the Phrafe-fenfe^ than in its pro; 
per and Principal meaning. 

J\f. C. How now ? muft we h 
beholden to you to invent a neii 
word for us ? 

C, It cannot be new to you fun 
who are fo well verfed in a Divinit 
that confills;, in a manner, wholl 
of Phrafes ; and fetting them aCdi 
hath little or nothing in it, upo 
which account it may well be caller 
J^hrafe-Divinity. ' 

JSf. c. You will never leave yoi 
Pleafantnefs. Pray talk more gravv 
ly, and explain your felf. 

C. rietellyouthen what Imea 
There are many I obferve, who ha 
been very fcruoulous about tlj 



the Friendly Debate, n 

'hird Commandmentv and careful 
Lcp it, as the words arc vulgarly 
i^Jinour language now a-daycs; 
^ho have made no Confcience at ail 
fit, at leaft notorioufly broken it, 
ccording to the true import of the 
Vords among the Hebrevrs, Yov, 
5I have been taught, when Mofes 
ndy Ihoufhalt not take the Name of 
he Lord thy God in vain, &c. His 
leaning was ; that no man fhould 
are to call God to witnefs to any 
ling he fpoke, and yet utter a falf- 
ood , or not do according to his 
romife. If he were fo prophane, 
;e afTures him that God who was 
r/V^f-y^to what he faid, would alfo 
e his Judg, and by no means acquit 
im. Now^howoft you have broken 
he Commandment in this, which 
5 the main fenfe ; while you have 
icen very ftridt to keep it in the o- 
her, I need not tell you. 
[ N' C. You muft tell me ; or elfe 
muft tell you that you are like the 
^evilf a falfi accuftv of the Bre- 

In en. 

B 4 cYcur 

8 A Contimation of 

C. Your Minifters can tell you 
a great deal better than I, who were 
wont to complain of this as one of 
the moft grievous fins of the times ; 
that fo many h^d forfrvorn themfelves 
hy breaking their Solemn League and 
Covenant, You covenanted, for in - 
ftance, to extirpate Herefy and 
Schifm ; and fuch great diligence 
was ufed in this point, that they 
grew fafter, and to a greater height 
than ever had been known among us. 
So Mr. Cafe tells the Farliament in 
his Thanksgiving-Sermon for the tak- 
ing of C/?^y?^r p. 25. And asks them 
hovp it comes topaf? that thefe abound 
* more than ever they did, and that un- 
der "their JSiofes ? There is fuch a nu- 
meroiis increafe ( faith he ) of Errors 
andUerefieSyXS Iblufh to repeat what 
fame have affirmed, namely, that there 
are no lefs than an hundred and four- 
fcore fever dl Herefies propagated and 
Jjrrcd in this Neighboring City, jind 
many of fuch a Nature, as that I may 
truly fayy in CA L VI N' S language, 
the Errors and innovations under 


the Friendly Debate] g 

\xfhkh we groaned of late years ( He 
[means under the Bifliops ) were but 
\tollerabte iriflesy childr ens play y corn- 
fared with thefe damnable DotirineSf 
\DoBrines of Devils. Nor is he alone ^ 
in thefe complaints, but Mr. Ed- 
iwards "^ craves leave to be free with'Epifi.Ded. 
them, and to tell them that Sedtsff^ofee* 
had been growing ever fince the firffc^f *^i„ 
year or their litting ; and every year ^ part* 
increafed more and more. No foon- 
er had they put down the Common- 
Prayery but down went the Scrip- 
tures themfelves together vvkh it, 
which many among us (faith he) 
flight and blafpheme. The Images 
oFthe trinity, Chrift, Virgin ^^JVLary, 
and the Apojlles were ordered to be 
broken down ; and at the next 
ftroke there were thofe that over- 
threw the DoBrine of the Trinity, 
oppofed the Dlvinify of Chrift, 
(poke Evil of the Virgin ^lary , 
flighted all the Apuftles.The Parlia- 
ment caft out the Ceremonies in the 
SacramentSj, the Cr-c?f?and Kneeling ; 
and then the People in many places 


lo A Continuation of 

cafl: out the Sacraments themfelves ; 
Baptifm and the Lords Supper. The 
one took away Saints day es , and 
fomeof the other made nothing of 
the herds-day. The fuperfluous 
maintenance as he calls it, of Bi- 
fliops and Deans being cut off, im- 
mediately the neceflary fetled main- 
tenance of all Minifters was cryed 
down and denyed too. Nay the Bi- 
fhops and their Officers being gone, 
there were many that would have 
thrown away all Minifters after 
them. A great deal more you may 
find there to the fame purpofe if you 
have a mind ; but he feems to fum 
up all in this ; the Fourth Command- 
ment was taken away in the Bi/hops 
dayes (fo he is pleafed to calumniate 
them ) lut now we have all ten Com- 
mandments taken away at once hy the 
Jntinomians ; yea all Faith and the 
Gofpel denyed hy the Seekers. He 
would have inferted this claufe fure, 
if he durft ; the Third Commandment 
is now taken away hy the Parliament, 
For I pray you, my good Friend , 


thf Friendly Debate] 1 1 

what remembrance had they of the 
dreadful name of God, to whom 
they had lifted up their hands? 
What a trifle was that facrcd Oath 
now accounted ? Tihat water of life * 
which (as Mr. Cafe fancied"^) had* Sermons 
kept all the Nation from giving up the co^xnant, ' 
ghofiy wasdeaditlelf; and had not^' ^^" 
the leaft fpirit remaining in it, to 
quicken thefe Covenanters to ex- 
tirpate Hcrefies. Nor would all 
the expoftulations of their Mini- 
fters put any life into them: But as 
thefe complainers had violated o- 
ther obligations in taking that Cove- 
nant ; fo now their Mafters fet it at 
naught, and, to ferve the ends of 
State,continued to connive at thofe 
things which they promifed to root 
out. For a great while after this, 
I find no lefs than three of your Di- 
vines ( in their Epiftle to the Rea- 
der before Mr. Pooles book againft 
Eiddle ) renew their Complaints, 
that the whole body of Socinianifm 
which walkt only in the Darkf and in 
Latirje, in the Bif-ops time, was now 


12 A Continuation of 

ttanflated into Englijh, Many hold 
Fa5ioYS for thofc Blajfhemies which 
in thofe times durji not appear, dif- 
feminating now their Herefies without , 
feary both publickly and from houfe to 
houfei Which by the way may in- 
ftrudl you who are to be charged 
with a great part of the guilt and 
mifchief of fuch Books as the Sandy- 
Foundation ( /. e, the DoiSlrine of the 
Trinity ) Shaken, and feveral others 
lately publifhed. In fhort, this 
was a thing fo notorious, that Mr. 
Cafv moves the Parliament ( in that 
Thankfgiving Sermon/?. 50.) that 
there might be a folemn faft to hum- 
ble and afflicft their Souls for Cove- 
fjant'violationsy and wherein the Co- 
'venant might he renewed in a more fo- 
lemn andferiou^ manner with God. 

N. c. Thefe were hot fpirits, 
and might be too forward to charge 
the Covenanters with taking Gods 
name in vain when they were not 
guilty of it. 

C. But you will not fay that the 
greateft part of the London-Mini- 


the Friendly Del/ ate. Ij 

JJers were rafli and heady. Now if 
jyou read their Seajonahh Exhort at i- 
\on to their rcfpedtive ParilTies, prin- 
ted 1660. you will find, they com- 
plain oithe Odious fcandals of thofe 
I that pYofefi themfehes the People of 
I God : particularly cf their [elf feeking 
wider pretence of the publick good ; 
and their unparalleled breach of all 
civil and f acred Oaths and Covenants 
both to God and Men. 

N. c. This 1 confefs is a fad fto- 

c. Confider then I befeech you ; 
if thefe Leaders and great Profef- 
fors were fo guilty, what fliall we 
think of the common People, who 
took the Covenant hand over head 
(as we fay) being totally ignorant 
of feveral things to which they 
fwore : nay were taught by Mr. Cafe 
(in his Sermons about the Cove- 
nant/?. 41.) to take it, though they did 
not under jland it ? 

N,C, I cannot believe you. 
j C- Go to the Book then and be- 
lieve your own Eyes, There you 

y " will 

4 A ContimaUon of 

will find he alledges the Example 
of Jojjah for it, who renewed the 
Covenant when he was a Child ; and 
oi Nehemiah who made the Women 
and Children do the like. He was 
fenfible indeed, that there is a great 
difference between that which was 
Divine^ and this which was but the 
Devife of men ; and therefore would 
perfwade them that they were 
bound no further by this Oath, than 
they fliould fiijd the things contain- 
ed in it to be according to the Word of 
God. But it is plain, I fhew'd you 
the Inft time, the Parliament did 
not allow any Body to expound the 
Covenant but themfelves. And be- 
fide this, they fware without any li- 
mitation to preferve things as they 
flood in the Church of Scotland, 
where for any thing they knew, 
there might be as abfolute a Tyran- 
ny, as is exercifed under the Papa- 
cy. Nay, in Scotland it felf, there 
were fome who argued foftrongly 
clnf."'^'^' ^g^^^fl: the Covenant, that a Jolly 
man I have read of, was driven to 


^ the Friendly Debate. 1 5 

fuch ftraits at laft^, as he had no- 
thing to fay but this, 7hat they 
muft deny Learning and Reafon, and 
helpChrift a Lift. If you will give ' 
me leave , Tie tell you fomething 
worfe than this. 
I N.c^ Hov^^ is it poflible ? 
I C. There were fome that in plain 
terms pleaded Religion for the 
breaking of the Covenant: So that 
( contrary to Mr A^^'s Exhortation 
1 told you of) with them ti^cjj^as 
Tea, and Nay. J. Lilhurn for in- 
ftance, in his Englands Birthright 
p. 29. faith, that the Covenant is im- 
poffihle to he kept, and that theFra-^^^^, 
mers and Makers of it have run into ^^^\i^ 
wilful perjury. Nay, he calls it; K^thecirv 
Make-bate, perfecuting, foul-defiroy'26y^, ' 
ingy England- dividing, and. undoing *^^ 
Covenant, With whom you may 
joyn Mr. J. Goodwin, who tells us 
( in his 12. Cautions p, 4. ) that to 
violate an abominable and accurfed 
Oath (fpeaking with reference to 
this Covenant ) out of confcience to 
God, if an holy and a bleffed perjury, 


1 5 A Contfnuation of 

N. C. Now I hope you have done. 
C. It ought not to be forgot, that 
this Covenant was contrary to your 
Solemn Protejiation, taken firft by 
both Houfes of Parliament, where- 
in they promifed to defend the true 
reformed Prate fiant Religion, expref- 
fed in the DoBrine of the Church of 
England. Did they not ? 
JSf.C. Yes. 

C. Why then did your Minifters 
perfv^ade them to enter into this 
J}lew Oath, which was fo contrary 
to fome Articles of our Churches 

JSf, C, They explained themfelves 
as I remember, before they Gove- 
nanted,and told us what they meant 
by the Docftrine of the Church of 

( . Very good. And was it not: 
finely done, that after the Mem- 
bers of both Houfes had taken the 
Proteflation, fo as I now faid, the 
Houfe of Commons alone fliould 
make a Declaration, that by thofe 
words [^the DoSirineofthe Church c) 


fhe Friendly Debate. 17 

tngland] was intended only fo, 
nuch of it, as was oppolite to Po- 
pery and Popilh Innovation, and 
liould not be extended to the main- 
renance of the Difciplineand Go- 
vernment? And then that under 
rhis Explication publifhed only by 
ihi^Connnoiis and never aflented to 
^ytheP^c-rx, this Proteftation was 
iinpofed on the Kingdom, and all 
:hat would not take it declared un- 
|fic to bear office in Church or Com- 
TJon wealth ? Whatis there to be 
hid, Ibefeechyou, toexcufe thefe 
1-range proceedings. Firft, both 
iloufes fwear to plain words. Then 
;neHoufe claps an interpretation 
)n them. And after that, they alone 
.0 far intrench upon the Peoples 
Liberties ( which they were bound 
•o maintain ) as to impofe this 
Protefi/ttion upon them without con- 
sent of Parliament: and that un- 
Jlcra heavy penalty on thofc that 
iilhould not comply with them. All 
llhis is no lefs than a Demonjiratior*,- 
)fi[nethinks, that too many of you (for 
C we 

1 8 A Continuation of 

we will not condemn all ) have bcei 

too forward to take Gods name ii 

vain ; at leaft to in gage your felve 

in Oaths and Vows haltily and ra(h 

ly. And with all it fliews that yoi 

were of that impofing Spirit whici 

you now complain of; and that Re 

ligion was more pretended than tru 

Jy aim'd at : And, laftly, that yoi 

were fo vainly confident of your fa 

vour with God, that you could tak( 

hisname into your mouths backwarc 

and forward, and never blufli; fc 

you did but look demurely, and ex 

prefs much reverence to it in com 

mon talk. All which I proteft, ii 

fpoken to no other purpofe but tc 

humble you; andtofhew that you 

unjuftly ufurp the name of the mofi 

Religious People, the mofi confcienti- 

OHs, and the mofi fearful of offending 

God, that are in the Nation: and 

that you abufe the fimple,when yoi 

make them believe that you are the 

Pillars upon which the Kingdom; 

welfare ftands ; for whofe fake ai 

lone it is, that we were not madi 


the Friendly Debate . \ p 

long ago like Sodom and Gomorrah, 
For itismanifcftyou have involv'd 
^"he people in abundance of guilt ; 
and made Religion vile in their 
<zycs, and helpt to bring the name 
)f God, which you have taken fo oft 
in vain, into great contempt. 

iV. c. This is not a place to talk 

C. You fay right : otherwife I 
jhould have told you of a fre/h guilt 
)f this kind. For 1 am informed 
bme have fet up Schools for the in- 
lru(5ting Youth in Logick and Phi- 
ofophy ; directly contrary to ths 
)ath they took in the Univerfity, 
Jutlamrunbefidemy intention in 
his difcourfc : having told you, I 
emember, it would be in vain to 
[lifpute any more ; and therefore 
jlefired, when we met again, the 
jhe time might be fpent to other 

; N,C. I have not forgot it. But 
jf you will go in here, we will not 
.wrangle at all, but only talk fairly^ 
IS loving Friends , of fome mat- 
G z tcrs 

2 A Continuation of 

tcrs in which you are concerned 

C, Ifuppofe it is about our oh 
bufinefs, and then you had bette 
confider of whati havefaid already 
If that will not move you, I havi 
little hope to do any good upoi 

N.C. You ar-e a ftrange man 
When 1 had no great mind to b( 
troubled with your Difcourfe, thei 
you would never have done. Am 
now that I am earneft to be fatisfiec 
in fome things, you hang back anc 
have nothing to fay. Methinks yoi 
might be willing, at leaft, to re 
ceive an account of my Thought 
concerning our late Debate 

C. Have you then confiderec 
what I faid, as you promifed yoi 
would ? 

iV; C. Yes that I have. And bein 
fomewhat ftagger'd with it, | 
thought good to confult with fom 
Chriftian friends, and hear thei 
Opinion, which I prefer before m 

cT. And what was the iflue ? 

the Friendly Debate, 21 

A^. C. I perceive they are gene- 
•ally offended at you to a high de- 

I c. So were the Scribes and Pha- ' 

rifeesat our Saviour. And for any 
i'hmg I know bo:h upon the fcore, 
:>ecaufe you are plainly told oFyour 
Faults. This nettles and vexes you 
t the heart: only to hide and con- 
ceal your fecret anger ; you call it 
>y another name, and fay you arc 

iV! (7. No they are not angry v^^ith 
hofe who give them a private re- 
roof, but to print a book againft 
hem, what can it intend, but mif- 

r. Now I guefs at their meaning, 
'heir Senfe is of the fame nature 
dth that which Mr. Edwards faith 
he Sectaries took at his Gan^rdtna^ 
Becaufc it hinders their making Pro * second 
hlytes, and fo far want of growing t4p ^^^ P* ^^^' 
r> fach a number as they deftgn and 
\opefor, they may mif^cfa Toleration, 
\ndfo in the iffue a Domination )Which 
\fo much fought for by them, 

C 3 NX. 

2 2 ^ ContimaHon of 

N.c* They mean the fame that 
that the Apoftle doth, who requires 
us to give no offence neither to the 
Jews, nor to the Greeks^ nor to the 
Church of God, iCor. 10.32. 

C. By your favour Sir , Saint 
J?4ul and you have not the fame 
meaning: as you might have learnt 
long ago (ijTyou did not converfe 
more with your frivolous writcrSj 
than thofc who have fome {enfe in 
them ) from your great Champion 
Mr. Cartwright. He tells you ex- 
prefly that by offence the Apoftic 
doth not intend, that which difplea- 
fey, or di f contents, but that whercbj 
occafion is given to any of tranf 
greffing againft the Laws of God, 
For he is treating of eating things 
offered to Idols even in the Temple; 
of Idols, or in the prefence of fucli 
as were indangered therel;)y : The 
Gentiles being hardned in their Ido 
latry, the Jews provoked againfl 
Ghriftianity, and fome Chriftiani 
drawn by fuch examples to follovi 
them doubtingly. Take now th<| 
^ ' Wore 

the Friendly Del? ate . 2 3 

Word in this proper fenfe, and I . 
/liall be cleared from this imputati- 
on; and you your felves condemned 
for looking no better to your Ret, 
that they go not awry. 

JSf.c. Howfo? 

c. It is the very defign of <Tny 
iBook to keep you from falling into 
fin any more: andtodiredl you to 
fuch a Courfe that you may not 
[break the Laws of God again your 
;felves, nor call fuch a ftumbling- 
block before others, that they take 
loccafion to break them too. If any 
|have mifinterpreted my meaning, or 
out of anger and vexation grown 
worfe and more audacioufly violent 
by my writing, they muft bear the 
blame which they would throw up- 
on me. Nay, a far greater blame, 
for they both tdke Offence, when 
none was given, and they notori- 
ouflyjf/T'^ Offence to others, whom 
I would have kept from offending. 

N.CThcy will believe both alike; 
that you meant to take away Offen- 
ces, and that they lay any in the peo» 
pies way. C 4 C.Th^t 

2 4 ^ Conunmtm o^ 

C, That is; they feldom believe 
any good of others, or any ill of 
themfelves. But 1 do not beg your 
belief, for it is manifeft to any un- 
prejudiced reafon, that the Book 
was fet abroad on no other Errand, 
thah to remove ftumbling blocks 
out of every bodies way ; efpecially 
yourSchifm which is the greateft 
of all. And if notwithftanding, 
you be fcandalized, and confidently 
affirm it were better to forbear fuch 
writi ngs, you fhall be judged out of 
the mouths of fomeofthe old and 
better Nonconformifts. Who tells 
their Brethren of i\r<?ir-f/^^/^A;^ ( and 
I fay the fame to you ) when they 
would have had them forbear to read 
the Common-Prayer becaufe of the 
fcandalitgave to fome ; It ii a [can- 
dal taken and not given ; and by for- 
bearingy we fhall ojfendyou the moret 
if to confirm men in error be tofcanda- 
lizethem; yeawejhall prejudice the 
Truth ; and it might be an occafeon to 
beget needlefi fcruples in others, and 
4raw msti ignorant ly from the fellow- 


the Friendly Debate. 25 

hip of the Saints and the holy Ordi- 
unces of God, and flrertgthen them 
vho by your ovrn confeffion, are run toa 
\ir 0to Schifm already. * 

h\ C. Whofc words are thefc ? 

c. You may find them /^. 16. in 
:he Keply made i6j\o. by many Mi- 
lifters in Old-England, to the /In- 
^wer which their N'. E. Brethren 
yave to their enquiry about 9. pofi- 
dons in the year 1637. And I 
Lvould to God your Minifters would 
ilay them to heart, and no longer 
continue to harden their Followers 
in Schifm, by forbearing the ufe 
3f that which they know is lawful. 
Remember I befeech thee the fa- 
mous obfervation of a great Author, 
* that Herejies and Schifms are of all * ^^^^ p^, 
other the greatefi fcandahy yea, more^^^'.^^^y^^ 

, , ^ -' . /. ^ 7-^ Unity m 

than the corruption of manner:^, i^or Religion. 
as in the natural Body a Wound or So- 
lution of continuity is worfe than a cor- 
rupt Humour ; fo it U in the Spiritual. 
Nothing doth fo much keep men from 
\the Church, and drive men out of it, 
Of breach of Unity, OneofhisRea- 


2 6 A Continuation of 

fons is, becaufe every Sefi hath a 
diverfepofiure, or cringe by themfelvs, 
which cannot hut move derifion in 
worldlings and depraved Politicks, 
who are apt to contemn holy things. It 
ispoflible you maythinkt for you 
are very cenforious, that he was no 
better than one of thofe depraved 
perfons, and fo take no heed to his 
words. Let me remember you there- 
fore, that there was a time when 
the Presbyterians applauded this ob- 
fervation, and laboured to ferve 
themfeives of it. For I find it cited 
in a Book calTd rvholfome Severity re- 
conciled with Chrifiian Liberty, li- 
cenfed by Mr. Cranford 1644. where 
the Author likewife faies, that the 
experience of former times makes usfo 
Wife, as to forefee that Herefie and 
Schifm tend to the breach of the Civil ^ 
peace, and to a rupture in the Stati 
as well as the Church. Of which h( 
gives many inftances, efpeciall; 
the Donatifis in Jfrick, and the Jna-l 
haptifts in Germany. But now il 
feems you are grown ftark blind ; 



the Friendly Debate. 27 

and whereas you had a forefight in 
times paft , at prefent you cannot 
or will not fee what is before your 
eyes * 

N.C. Itold you I would not en- 
ter into long difputes vVith you. But 
I am heartily forry that you have 
fo much grieved all the Godly. 

C, You ftill perfift in your old 
Uncharitablenefs , Pride, and high 
cfteem of your felves above all o- 
thers. Or if you mean , only all 
the Godly of your way, yet you are 
guilty of great partiality ; in tak- 
ing a liberty which you will not give. 
For you fay what you lift againft 
that way, wherein fo many good 
people among us truly ferve God, 
and make it ungodlinefs in us to fay 
any thing againft yours. Pray give 
me a rcafon , when you have duly 
confider'd it, of this unequal deal- 
ing. You fpeak and write againft 
the Bijhops, Common-Prayer, the Cere- 
monies ; nay many of you openly 
revile them to thejuft grief of our 
People , and all this with a reputa- 

8 I A Continuation of 

tion of great Godlinefs : But we 
mutt fow up our mouths, and not 
fay a word againft you and your de- 
vices ; or elfe be accounted ungodly 
and prophane , nay it is well if we 
cfcape the brand of Atheifm. What 
is this, but to imitate thofeHuck- 
fters, who have double weights and 
ballances, one for buying, another 
for felling r* To have one meafure 
for your felves, and another for all 
other folk? 

J\f. C. I do not approve of this. 

C. But you fide with thofe that 
play thefe tricks. And befides; you 
that are fo loth to be grieved in the 
vulgar meaning of the words make 
light of grieving others in the pro- 
per fenfc of it. For you have fo 
forely galled and wounded many by 
your pradlices, that the AnguiQi 
hath been fuch as (according to the 
Obfervation now named) to thruft 
fome back who were coming to us, 
and drive others out, who were a- 
mong us. The Reproaches, I mean, 
which you have caft upon our 



the Friendly Debate. 2g 

Church,the divifions you have made, 
the confulion you have been Au- 
ithorsof, have been iuch thornes in 
fome mens way, that when they 
were juft at the door of our Church 
they have drawn back their foot and 
fain back to the Popifh Religion , of 
this 1 have good evidence; andfuch 
as you dare not queftion of the o- 
ther ; that fome have taken fuch 
diftaft at the ftate of things among 
us, as to turn afide out of the right 
way, into the by-paths of Romifla 
Superftition and Idolatry. Wit- 
nefs the Seafonahle Exhortation of a 
great number of the London-ls/lmi'' 
fters; who tell us that fome 
are f ah from the Truth rrhich they f aw 
fo much defpifed , and hackjlidden to 
Poperyy a4 the only Religion j in their 
opinion , wherein Unity and Order is 
maintained. And a little after,/?. 16, 
they fay , they are afraid left too ma- 
ny may he too well conceited of that Re- 
ligion , finding Rome juflified hy 
Englands Corfufion , 04 Sodom was 
hy Ifraels fin. You may fay per- 

30 ACmimatiovt of 

haps, according to your ufual man- 
ner, that all thefc were wicked. 
But this is not fo eafiiy proved, as 
peremptorily faid. And there want 
not good reafons to make us think, 
that feveral well difpofed perfons, 
by occafion of this Schifm and the 
Scorn caft upon our Governors and 
Divine Service, which accompanies 
it; haveforfaken our Communion, 
and gone thither where they heard 
there was more Unity, Order, and 
reverence to Authority. 

N. Q Our Minifters are as much 
againft thofe, who revile your Wor- 
fliip and Service , or do not reve- 
rence Authority , as you can be. 

C. How doth that appear ? There 
is nothing more frequent with fuch, 
as Mr. Bridge^ than to teach the peo- 
ple that our way of Worjhip and 
Church Government is Antichrifti- 
an. Read but the 5*. of his len Ser- 
mons p. 3*70. and you will fee I do 
not bely him. Or, for more full 
fatisfac5tion , I refer you to another 
Book of his called Seafortabk Truths 


the Frienly Debate . ^ i 

h Ezil Times , where you may find 
him inftrudling them too plainly 
{p. Ii8.) thatfuch as he have their 
Orders to preach or prophecy from Je- 
fwi Chrifl himfelf; but Others (by 
whom he can mean none but our 
Minifters) have their Orders and 
tower from Men, from Prelates, from 
the Beaft : for thefe are all one in his 
language. Nay more than this, he 
teaches the pooreft, weakeft man or 
woman to go to Jefas Chrififorapow- 
?r to Prophefie : remembring them 
what one Alice Driver faid in ^ueen 
tMary\ daies, llefet my foot againfl 
the foot of the proudefi Prelate of 
^hem ally in the caufe of Jefm Chrifl. 
\nd therefore why fhouldyou not go to 
"Chrifl, fays he , and lay your [elves 
Jat upon the Promife , and fay to himy 
) Lord, lam a poor weak creature ^ I 
^ear I jhall never be able to hear my 
Teflimeny ; but thou haft faid, I will 
nve power to my two witneffes, and I 
tmoneofthywitnejfes: Now then,0 
^^ord , give power to me, &c. By 
vhich you may judge what he 


7 2 A Continuatm of 

thinks of thole Mdgifirates that up- 
hold our Worfliip and Orders , and 
allow no fuch vpeak creatures 2lS his 
*filly credulous followers , to com- 
mence Prophets and Prophetejfes , 
when ever they fliall fancy that Je- 
fus Chrift himfelf hath given them 
Power and Orders to preach. And 
whether they be the Godly Magi- 
fir at es or no , Gods anointed ones^ 
whom he fpeaks of /?. no. 

N. C, Thofe that I am acquain- 
ted withall diflike his boldnefs as 
much as your felf. 

C. If the reft of your Minifters 
have fuch an hearty abhorrence, as 
I have, of thofe that call dirt even 
in the face of Authority it fclf, let 
them fliew it by fome means oi 
other. Why do they not petitior 
his ^JMajeJiy now as fome of youi 
Churches did the late Protedlor not 
many years ago, that he woulc 
chaftife fuch Perfons as thefe ? 

N:.C, I remember no fuel- 

C^ But I do; and you fhall find ii 



the Friendly Deflate. ^3 

in the addrefs prefentcd to Richard 
Cromwell iiom the County of North- 
ampton. There , after many high 
commendations of his Father ' 
(whom they c^// the light of their eyesy 
ind the breath of their Noflrils) and 
great cxpreflions of joy that he had 
left him to them oi a moft choife he- 
^acy , they defire he would fiew ten^ 
iernefs toward the name of God again fl; 
'he hold Blafphemers of his Magi/ha- 
y, Defamers of his f acred Ordinan* 
:es, Seducers from Truth, Corrupters 
f his Worjhip. And then, that he 
\vould exercije jufl feverity againji de- 
\pifers of Dignities , and revilers of 
\Authority > vphofe unhallowed Tongues 
[fet on fire from hell) fpare not toflafh 
mt their infolent reproaches and impi- 
ous execrations againji his Fathers 
Sepulchre, and his own throne* But 
ponfider that in thofe dai* it was 
.:heir concernment to have defpifers 
wd revilers puniflit ; Now they 
"erve the Caufe , and help to dif- 
jrace the prefent eftablifliment : 
iyhich is the reafon, 1 fuppofe, that 
D all 

54 ^ Contimation of 

all the Churches are fo unite in this 

2V\ c. You take the Liberty to 
fay what you lift ; but let me fay 
little or nothing : And when you 
have done, you write a Dialogue be- 
tween Tour felf and a Non-conformift ; 
in which you make him fpeak juft 
what you think good and na more. 
Is this fair dealing? 

C. Where did you get the fole 
priviledge of writing Dialogues? 
You imagine:, perhaps, we have 
forgot thofe that you entertain'd 
the people withal fome years ago; 
but our memories are not yet fo flip j 
pery. I call to mind, for inftance 
the Dialogue between a Countrey\ 
Gentleman and a minifler of the Woul 
about the Common-Prayer, anfwer 
ed by Authority 1641. And anc 
thcrhctmccn a Loyalijif and aRoyJ 
Itfty about our Civil Liberties> at\ 
1644. Thefirftof thefelcanfcarcj 
forget, if 1 would ; the Author ci| 
it ( Mr. Lerves Hughes ) impartinj 
to mc; fuch an extraordinary piec 

the Friendly Deflate. jj 

f Learning as this, that Kyrieleefon 
; a word compounded of Hebrew 
nd Greek, fignifying in Englijh, 
.ord have mercy upon us. He fur- 
i(ht me alfo with a memorable rea- 
)n, why the Mafi-Book leaves out 
le Doxology at the end of the Lords 
^rayer; becaufe the Pope faies he, 
ill have none of his Church 9 neither 
Wiefl nor People f to give fo much ho- 
our and glory to G^, Which he 
as fo well conceited of^ that he 
^peates it twice within thecom- 
iCs of a few leaves. This good 
lan , I fometimes fancy , would 
ive been a chofen inftrument, and 
one marvelous well, to write a RA- 
lONALEof theD/V^Sor)'.In which 
h might have told us, that R A- 
j 1 N A L E was a word com- 
^Dunded of Latin and Engli/h, fig- 
nifying, AllReafon. And inform'd 
^y in particular, that the caufe 
Khy the Aflembly left it to mens 
liberty, to leave out the whole 
Jords Prayer if they pleafed, was 
t\\y thiS; that all their Church might 
l\ D 2 gii'^ 

5 '5 ^ Continuation of 

give all honour and glory to Jefm 
Chrifl. So I fuppofe his JjfeHion 
would have made him fay ; though 
if he had followed his Reafon it 
would have led him to this; that oi 
the Pope left outfomeofithecaufe he 
would not do our Saviour fo much hi' 
ttour : fo they permitted men to leave 
out all, that every man might do hin> 
Of little honour as he plea fed. j 

N, c. You ^annot for your Iif1 
forbear to lead me now and then : t( 
fome mirth. 

C. I intended only to reprefen 
how your Minifters fometime abuf 
themfelves,more than any of us eve 
did. As for my felf:, lam not coi 
fcious of the leaftabufe I have pi 
upon you ; nor that I hai 
made you fay any thing but wh 
your people are wont to talk. Ce| f 
tain 1 am that all the wit your Pan 
hath, {hall never be able to find ai 
fuch Abfurdity in my Book, as thi ' 
Dialogue againft the Common-PrM ^ 
er is guilty of; where the Minifi 
makes the Gentleman prcfently cc 


the Friendly Debate] 37 

sfs it to be full of Fopijh Errors ; 
^nd to appoint horrible BLjphemies, 
,nd l)ing Fables to be read to the 
?cople. Nay, makes him cry our, 
ilmoft as foon as they had begun * 
heir Difcourfe. O horrible ! Horv 
}ave the Bifhops deluded King Ed- 
yard the Sixth, ^ueen Elizabeth , 
Xiw^ James, and our gracious King 
^harles, and the whole State ; and 
nade them believe there was nothing 
in the Service-Book that is amifi, or 
itny way contrary to the Word? God 
Almighty deliver us from them. I 
iliould blufli to the end of my life, 
(f after our whole debate I had con- 
cluded^ as this man begun. But 
phis is the way of thofe Sots that 
plk as if they were infallible, and 
iwould bear all before them by their 
|bare word ; nay, take it very ill if 
you be not converted, as foon as 
^they open their mouth. Pythago- 
ras is revived in fome of you ; and 
"PAt^fucha one [aid it, is of as good 
.Authority, as the belt proof in the 

D 3 N,r^ 

33 '^ Contimation of 

^.C. This was fome ignorant 
Zealot, I believe. 

C. So one would think ; and yet 
he had (o good an opinion of him- 
felf, that he thought luch Works 
as thefe fit for the eyes of the High- 
Court of Parliament. To whom I 
find he prefented Certain Grievances 
an. 1640. of the very fame import 
with this goodly Dialogue, but fo 
abfurdly flanderous, that you can- 
not but be aftonifli't at his brutiih 
ftupidity. For there he tells them 
(as he doth the Gentleman at the 
conclufion of their Conference ) 
that the Bifhops have appointed' 
fome portions of Scripture to be 
read on certain dayes and omitted 
others , on purpo/e to pervert the 
meaning of Chrifi, and to keep weak 
Chri/iians in hlindnep. 

The whole Book of Canticles for 
inftance, is never appointed to be 
read ; that the People, ( as he will 
have it ) may not he ahle to fee the 
ardent Love and ajfeBion of Chrifi 
toward his Spoufe, the Ele£i : and 



the Friendly Debate. 59 

icy thereby he fiirred up to love 
hrifi, and he truly zealous for his 
]lory. Nay, if you believe him,the 
looks of the Kings, ( all favc the 
firft chapters ) and the Chronicles * 
ere forbid, becaufe they jhew that 
'odly Kings did ever love Gods true 
Wophets, and did hearken to them, 
nd were zealom of maintaining true 
.eligion, and fuppr effing Idolatry. In 
hich words he difcovered the very 
round of their quarrel with the 
'.ing^viz. that he did not take fuch 
reat Seers as himfelf into his bo- 
)me; and fuffer then[i to guide his 
lonfcience, as if they were of the 
'rivy-Council of Heaven- But he 
[fcovered withal how little efteem 
*, for his part, merited: Or ra- 
ler how well he deferved to be ftig- 
iatiz*d and branded in the fore- 
sad, as one, ( tofpeak in his own 
.nguage ) that vpas a falfe-Prophet, 
Wophefying lyes. For was there 
^er any man before this fo impu- 
:nt, as to put a Libel of this Na- 
ire againft his fpiritual Fathers 
D 4 and 

40 A Continuation of M 

and Governors,into the hands of tht^ 
Higheft Court of the Kingdom ?y 
Did any of the Priefis or Prophets of 
Baal think you, ever help themfelves 
and their caufe by fuch invedlives 
againft the Prophets of the Lord? 
For my part, I am of the mind, that 
the Devil himfclf would be hard put 
to't, to invent more bold and mali- 
cious Slanders than thefe of this 
mans forging ; w^ho wants nothing 
but jrit to make him like that Father 
cf Lyes, And yet, I fuppofe, he 
pafled for a Godly man, a precious 
Servant of Jefus Chrifl^ a Faithful 
Minifter of the Lord : Nay, was che- 
rifhed and incouraged as one of 
Gods Prophets ; who had told them 
things that could be known no 
wayes, but by a Revelation. His 
Book alfo, no doubt, found won- 
derful acceptance, though it was 
ftuft with fo much Ignorance and 
railing. The people read it with a 
blind Devotion, juft as he was tranf- 
ported with fo blind a Paflion, as 
^0 accufe our Church of that, which 



the Friendly Debate] 4 1' 

11 that had eyes muft needs acquit 
t of. Bor both the Books of the 
Gngs were Appointed to be read 
itircly in the later end of l/pril, 
nd in May. As for the Chromcles, « 
hey being little more than aRepe- 
ition of what was writ before, 
light well be left to our private 
leading ; together with fome other 
Jooks, not eafy to be underftood 
i^ithout great Labour and long Me- 

N.c, I wifli you would difmifs 
his man, for he hath given us both 
|00 much trouble. 

C. Your people would not, when 
ime was, fo eafily lay his Book out 
f their hands, as I am able to prove. 
[Jutlet^o; together with all the 

rew of Revilers that were before 
lim. For you muft know there 
i^ere Dialo^ue-vrriters of the fame 
Jtamp in the dayes of your Fore-fa- 
Ihers. In one of which Books, cal- 
led the Dialogue of white Devils, the 
Author exprefly tells Js, that if 

Ttnces hinder the bringing in of their. 


42 A Comimation of 

Difcipline, they are Tyrants ; and may 
be depofed by their Subje£if. A Do- 
(Slrine which with all your reading 
in the Books of the Kings and the 
Chronicles you will no where find 
juftified For the people were bet- 
ter taught than to go about to de- 
pofe thofe that did not favour the 
Lords Prophets. I know you all 
difclaim this principle ; and I verily 
believe many of you abhor it : but 
I n:iention it to let you fee what the 
Maximes of fome of your Predecef- 
fors, imboldned fome of their Po- 
fterityto do. For this purpofe I 
could relate ftrange palTages out of 
fome Books efteemed by your Par- 
ty ; which would verify the cenfure 
of the Bifliop of Down and Conner 
* In his vi*-^ upon the Title of the Dialogue 
%Sac now named. Which he faith was 

i65T^pS v^ry fi^ f^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ Books ; for if 
Hfh'dby ^r^^y there were White Devils,or De- 
rvils transformed into Angels of Lights 
it is in their perfons who under the , 
pretence of^ndliiy^ l4hour to bring in 
all manner of Diford^r into the 


the Friendly Debate] 43 

Church, and confufioti into the Com- 
mon-wealth. But you have no mind 
we Ihould remember any thing that 
is paft ; that fo you may the more 
confidently fill the world with loud ' 
clamours, as if there never were 
fuch doings, as now. Elfe you 
might know there was another Dia- 
logue in Queen Elizabeths dayes, 
between Diotrephes and S. F^iul , 
in which the Difcipline and its Fa- 
vourers are magnified as Jpoflolical: 
hut the Bifliops of the Church of 
[England made no better than fo ma- 
i\y proud Diotrephes's ; nay fo ma- 
ny Devils ; and he of Canterbury 
!( fo they fpeak ) is Beelzebub, even 
Ithe Prince of the Devils. 
I ^,c. Still you will have all the 
talk to yourfelf, and I muft hold 
my tongue. Pray give me leave 
to inlarge my felf a while , for I 
am blam'd, 1 aflure you, very much 
for faying fo little in our laft Con- 

C. Speak your mind. 

K.C. I 

'44 -^ Contimmon of 

K. C 1 muft ingenuoufly coafefs 
that we cannot accufe you of fuch 
fpeeches as thefe ; but yet you fhew 
your great malignity to us other- 
ways. In particular it is very ill 
taken, that you make our Minifters 
guilty of breaking the O^cford JSi, 
and the ^yiB of uniformity. For you 
make as if they were obliged to keep 
within that diftance from this place 
which the Law prefcribes, if they 
have not taken the Oath : And if 
they have ; yet not to hold Aflem- 
blies (without Common Prayer) ef- 
pecially in time of your Service. 
Now it is plain to us, that they are 
not obliged to keep thefe Laws, fo 
as you would have them. Mark 
what I fay; they do not refufeto 
obey them ; only they cannot do ic 
in your manner. There are tw 
waies I have heard them fay fome 
times, of obeying Laws ; eithe 
doin^ what they Command, or by 
fujferitig what they inflidt. Now 
our Minifters are content to indure 
the penalties ; chafing to fatisfis 





the Friendly Debate . a j 

the Laws that way, which ismoft 
convenient for themfelves. 

C. Have you done? 

N.C. Yes. 

C, Then give me leave to tell 

yoU;» I do not believe they are fo well 

contented as you pretend. But if 

they be ; they are no better obfer- 

vers of Laws than a Thief, who is 

content to be hang'd after he hath 

rob'd his neighbours. I doubt they 

are contented both alike , /. e. they 

hope to efcape without punifliment; 

and when they are laid hold on, they 

fubmit becaufe they cannot help 

it. But when that's done, they are 

ftill both alike under fin ; becaufe 

it is not the thiefs hanging , and 

1 your fine and imprifonment , which 

\ the Prince intends ; but the doing 

I that which he commands. If this 

i be negle(fled, or you do contrary to 

i his Laws ; you offend God as well 

t as your Prince, and are liable to be 


N. C There is a wide difference 
in thefe things. For God you know 


■^5 A Contimation of 

requires we fhould not fteal ; but 
he doth not lay fuch Comn:iands on 
us, as your Laws. 

C, He requires you to obey the 
Magiftrate; which your Apology 
plainly confefles , while you fup- 
pofe he is fufficiently obeyed if you 
fufFer the penalties of his Laws. 
Which I muft tell you, is a ridicu- 
lous fancie; and makes the Magi- 
ftrate a moft barbarous Tyrant ; 
who is as well pleafed^ or takes 
himfelf to be as well obeyed , if his 
fubjedls be hang'i or broken on the 
Wheel after they have done a world 
of Mifchief ; as if they had been 
honeft and peaceable Members of 
theCommonwealth. Away with thefe 
abfurd do5lrines : which fuppofe all 
Governours to punilh the innocent; 
and all Subjedls to obey meerly for 
vrrath and not for Confcience fake^ 
You had beft go and correcfl St. 
Paul: 01 elfe corredlyour felves ; 
believing that you are guilty of a fin 
when you do not the things which a 
Law , not contrary to God's, re- 

the Friendly Del? ate. 47 

quires, or elfe the Magiftrate could 
have no right to punifli you: and 
that your Puniftiment alfo is not to 
free you from the guilt of the Firfi * 
Fault ; but to prevent a Second. 

' JSr.C, But this is not all they have 
tor fay for themfelves. They are 
men of a tender confcience, what- 
pver you think ; and have a great 
regard to the commands of their 
Governors ; nay think they ought 
;o be obeyed for confcience 


C To what purpofe then do they 
ife the former fliift ? 

i\r. C. Pray let me go on. They 
onfefs I fay that Laws fhould be 
cept ; and yet they are well aflfured 
hey commit no fin, in not keeping 

hofe you fpeak of 

C. They are wonderful men. 
N.C, For they are very confi- 
lent it is his Majefties pleafure that 
hey ftiould take this liberty againft 
he Laws. 

C. Good Sir, take heed what you 
ay. How come you to know his 


A Continuation of 

Majefties Pleafure ? where did he 
whifper it fo foftly, that none could 
hear it but your fel ves ? 

J\f. C, I was going to tell you, if 
you would but be patient. Wc 
hold that fince his Laws are not ex- 
ecuted; it fignifies his pleafure to 
allow us this Liberty; and we e- 
fteem it a fufficient warrant for our 
prefent pradlice : Nay, a tacit De- 
claration that he doth not defire tjie 
Laws fhould be obeyed. And upon 
this account you are juftly blamed^ 
who being but a private man have 
exprelled greater feverity againft 
them than the ^J^agiftrate himfelf: 
for you have charged them with the 
guilt of Sin, when the Magiftrate 
doth not fo much as puniflithem. 
Do you not think the King can dif- 
penfewith us? and doth he not in 
effedl give us a difpenfation when 
his Laws are not executed ? Why 
do you then difallow , what he ap- 
proves of? May not his Majefty do 
what he thinks good ? -*— 

c. 11 

the Friendly Debate. 49 

C. lundcrftand you well enough; 
and therefore thefc Repetitions ftte 
ncedlefs. But 1 would fain know 
what warrant they had when they » 
firft ventur d to acftcontraiy to thofe 
Laws. What alTurance had they, 
that it might be done without dan- 
ger to themfelves, or dillike to their 
Prince ? 

i N.C. Indeed,! did not think of that. 
C. If you cannot fatisfie that 
Queftion , you muft acknowledge 
you have but fpun a Cobweb in ma- 
king this Kxcufe. And confefs in 
plain terms that when they broke 
the Ice, and firft took this Eold- 
nefs, they were Sinners : and now 
they make one fin the Juftification 
bf another. 
N, C. How To. 

C, They firft tried whether 
my notice would be taken of 
heir abiding here, and of their clo- 
Ter meetings contrary to Law : and 
[A^hen they found there was none ; 
:hen they ventured further , and 
i)pened their doors more confident- 
E ly 

^ o ^ Continuation of 

ly for all comers : and ftill there be- 
ing no notice taken of this licenfe 
they gave themfelves; now they 
make it an argument to juftifie 
what they do, and would perfwade 
us it is as good, as if they had a li- 
cenfe from others for thefe unlaw- 
ful pradlices. So I call them : for 
you muft know further , that the 
Non-execution of the haws , is no 
proof of his Majeftie's pleafure 
they fliould notbe obferved. For 
it may be imputed to the negligence; 
of his Officers and Minifters in the 
difcharge of their Duty. But ifl 
to ferve your turn, you will fay it vs 
an argument of hU will and not ofl 
their negledl ; you muft unavoid 
ably ferve fome bodies turn befidesj; 
your own. In plain Englifh yom 
muft dffirm it is his pleafure thati 
the <^a{i fhould be faid , and the 
Papifts fhould take the fame libertyj| 
and opennefs in the exercife of the 
Religion , that you do in your 
Nay , 1 do not fee why all Drun 
kards, Swearers, and Blafphemers 


(he triendly Debate, 

may not think themfelves allowed 
in their Crinnes ; becaufc little or 
no notice is taken of any of them. 
To which I may add, that feveral 
perfons who think the non-Execu- 
tion of Laws is a warrant to you ; 
yet find very much fault with your 
meetings in the time of ourpublick 
Allemblies : Which is void of all 
fenfe if your Reafon be good; for 
there is no more notice taken of 
that, than of your meeting at other 
times. And yet it is demonftrable 
^thatthe not puniflnn^ your meeting 
in time of Divine Service doth not 
ignifie his Majeftie's pleafure to 
illow it ; and confequcntly ^(?«r not 
^eing punijhedy. can never fignifie his 
)leafure to indulge you in other 
natters. For if from thence you 
an gather that he approves of what 
ou do, then fo may rre if we lift to 
o the fame : And upon that ground 
)ay meet in little companies where 
e pleafe, and leave our Churches 
ite empty. A thing, without all 
ubt , which his Majcfty abhors to 
E 2 think 

^2 A Continuation of 

think of. You your felves have de- 
clared in times paft:, that it U abfurd 
to think y that Laws nay Ordinances 
of Parliament {even in matters of Re- 
ligion) fhould not equally oblige all the 
fuhje^ts of one Kingdom, If there- 
fore the Laws oblige u^ y then they 
obWgc you : If they do not oblige 
you, then they oblige not us neither 
We are all alike either bound o 

But to leave all thefe Confidera- 
tions; there isfomething more re- 
markable me thinks in this cafe^that 
deferves to be remembred above any 
thing elfe. And truly I cannot but 
fmile fometimes ■ 

N. C. Why what ij the matter ? 

CI I was going to fay ( but the 
very thought of your odd humor 
hindred me a little) that I cannot 
but fmile to my felf when I call to 
mind, how you ihift your Principles 
& change your Maximes, according 
to your Intereft. There is no Wea 
thercock more guided by the wine 
then You are by this. For it was i 




the F'riendly Debate. yj 

Fundamental (iMaxime, heretofore, 
I well, remember, nnd obftinately 
maintained among your party, who 
now fawn and flatter ; That the Law 
is the Kings Superior : and that he 
hath not fo much povrer over it ai to he 
its Supream Interpreter : That his 
Oath tyes him exprefly to ohferve it ; 
and hinds him to fee it executed. Up- 
on which fcore all the Kingdom was 
filled with loud complaints about 
the JSion- execution of Lj' .. .:*:d of 
the Indulgences granted to feveral 
perfons who offended again ft them. 

^'For execution, they faid, was the Life 
of the Law , without which it became 
vain and ufelefi. This was the bold 
Dodlrine currant not many years 
ago, and he was held for a Malig- 
nant that did not believe it.But now 
on afudden we hear you finganew 

1 Song in praife of his Majeliies (^r^c/- 
ous Indulgence ( for fo you will call 

jit) and withall you earneftly defiie 
the Execution of Laws may ftill be 
fufpended ; that is , lye dead and 

i become vain and ufelef?. For which 

I E 3 ake- 

^A A Cominmion of 

alteration, I can find no reafon but 
this; that now the Indulgence is to 
your felvcs and then it was to other 
folk. Then alfo you thought your 
felves able to make the King bow to 
you; and now your VVeaknefs for- 
ces You to worfhip him. 

iV. C. Where do you find any 
fuch Maximes ? For my part I have 
forgot them. 

C. I can fend you to feveral Books 
where you may refrelh your memo- 
ry : particularly to the ^jMedicine 
for ^Ulignants ; which tells you 
p. 25. that the King hath not power 
over the Law , hut the Law over the 
King. But for your greater eafe, I 
will only refer you to one fmali 
Pamphlet called Known Laws : in 
which you fhall not fail to meet 
with more than 1 have faid. 

N.C. Thefe, I believe, were the 
Maximes of the State faction, 

C, I know no difJerence between 
Them and your Divines in this mat- 
ter. 1 am fure Mr. Will, Bridges 
(who dififers from Mr. Will, Bridge 


(he Friendly Del? ate , y 5 

as little as their Names do) makes 
none at all. In whom 1 find a paflage 
fo diredlly oppolite to your prefent 
Opinions about the obligation of 
the Oxford' J6ly and declaring fo 
fully the fenfc of your Divines 
about the Kings Power, thatlmuft 
crave leave to mention it. 

N.c. I am content to hear it. 
But you muft remember that thefe 
were but the Opinions of private 

c. You are miftaken. This man 
made an Anfwer (puhlifl^ed by An- 
thority 1644.) to a Book called the 
Loyal Convert y in which he tells the 
converted Gentleman, that hejpeaks 
illej^ally if he fay the King can proteSi 
a Papift any way. His Reafon is 
Univerfal, though his Inftance be 
Particular ; for whom the Law Pro- 
'edls not, the King either cannot or 
mght not toprote5i. No, he ought 
lot, as he tells us, fo much as to 
require the help of fuch perfons to 
3rotedl him. For they ought only i^^ he 
tributaries^ J and to hold themfelves to 
E 4 their 

55 A Continuation of 

their U B I, to their place. Which 
words I would have you apply to 
that bufinefs which begat this Dif- 
courfe. I would fain know of your 
Divines how his Majerties Power 
comes to be fo variable at their plea- 
fure ? Whence is it that He can 
difpenfe with your Refulertce in the 
UBI or place to which you are by 
the Law confined, who would not 
difpenfe at all with others, nor re- 
leafe them ( no not for his neceflary 
affiftance ) from that place to which 
according to your Docflrine they 
were immoveably chained. The 
Law protedl:s both alike ; that is, 
not at all: what is the caufethen 
that he can give you Protedtion , not- 
withftanding the Law; and not 
them ? Millake me not ; it is the 
fartheft thing from my thoughts to 
call in queftion the extent of his 
Majefties Supream Power. I only 
queftion your Principlesy who pre- 
tend to be no Changelifigs. Anfwer 
me this. If the King have a Power 
to give an Indulgence and difpenfe 


the Friendly Debate. 5-7 

with the Law, why did you fo rude- 
ly and barbaroully clamour againlt 
him heretofore, and fay the contra- 
ry ? If he hiive not, why do you every ^ 
where feek to juftifie your felvesin 
your illegal Pradlices, with a meer 
(haddow & fancy of his Indulgence ? 
A^. C, There is a great diftance 
3f time between the one and the 
3ther: and they have changed their 
minds upon fecond thoughts. 
C.Very likely. And you believe alfo, 
that liPreshitery were in its height & 
Glory^his Majefty might difpence 
.vich theLz/rr/ of their making,as well 
is with his own : Do you not I* Alas 
good man ! you fhould find, I doubt, 
Co your coft, if things were come to 
that pafs ; that no Authority could 
remit the Rigour of them. For they 
lavc condemned all Difpenfations 
ind Licenfes,as Antichriftian.Their 
Decrees are fo facred, that as there 
lyes no appeal from their Courts, 
fo none may take Authority to re- 
laxate their Laws. For they take 
f themfelves to fit in. Ghrifts Tribunal 



•yg A Continuation of 

Seat ; and fo their Laws are no 
more to be difpenfed with than 

Bnt why do I infift fo long upon 
one thing, fince there arefo many 
inftances of your windings and 
turnings as your Intereft leads you ? 
There was a time I remember, when 
the Parliament was magnified as i 
the only keepers of the Peoples Li- 
I2^1nut ^^rties. We were told ^ that we 

tor on his . . 

Majefties mt2ht fiot fo much 04 tmaawe the 

Anlwers rr r i i y • • • / 

1642. tioujes could be wjurtous; or that a 
Committee fhould have any private 
ends to miflead them. And there- 
fore they could not fit too long, 
nor prove a burden to the good peo- 
ple. But now you are quite in an- 
other ftrain. There is no greater 
grievance than a Parliament. No 
more intoUerable mifchiefthan their 
long Continuance. For which dif- 
ferent judgment there is no reafon, 
that I can fee, but this ; that then 
the Parliament was for you, and 
now it is againft you. The time 
was alfo, as I told you before, when 


the Friendly Debate. 5 9 

'ho. Commons 2Aonc might impofe a 
Proteftation on all the Subjei5ls^ un- 
kr the Pain of being incapable of 
iny Office, if they refufed it. But ^ 
low you will be free from all impofi- 
ion of this Nature : And an Oath 
:njoyn'd by the King and both the 
3oufes, under no feverer penalty 
han a fmall Reftraint, is look't up- 
)n as a grievous Oppreflion. There 
re thofe likcwife that can remem- 
►er when the Commons alone put 
•ut another Order about fomc of 
he affairs of Religion : But now a 
.aw enadled by the Kings Autho- 
Lty, is thought an high invafionof 
'hrifts Prerogative; and he muft 
ot meddle in matters of his Wor- 
lip. The reafon is ; any thing 
nay be done by any Body to advance 
our fancies, but nothing againfl: 
lem by no creature in the World. 
(ay, we have not forgotten the 
ime when Mr. Cafe ufed this Argu- 
Jient among others to perfwade the 
3eople to take the Covenant, ^ ^^'Ih^^T^ 
'ufe Jntichrifi and hif faBion had co\enln:, 


6o A Continuation of 

projperdfo much by entring into Co- 
venants ; therefore the People of God 
Jhould try what this way wili do, which 
hath heen fo advantageous to the ene- 
my. For God, faid he, may make 
ufe of that Stratagem to ruin their 
Kingdom, which they ufed to build it. 
But now if any of us fay, that the 
fame Perfons have maintain'd a 
great reverence in the people to 
their Religion, by many Stately 
Ceremonies, fplendid Veftures, and 
Pompous Rites, and therefore we 
may hope to keep the Ordinances of 
God from contempt by a few folemn 
and grave Ceremonies, by decent 
habits, andfuch rites and geftures 
as may befeem the dignity of our 
Religion; prefently you raife an 
out-cry againft us, and the People 
are told, that we are Popi/hly affeB- 
edy of an Antichriftian fpirit, and 
imitate Idolaters. For which I can 
affign no caufe but this ; that then 
the Argument was foi you ; and now 
it makes for us. And you are refol- 
ded to ferve your felves by all means 


the Friendly Debate] 6 1 

hough it be by approving and anon 
cjecfl:ing the very fame things. 

IFa thing like you well, it fhall 
TO very hard but you will findfome 
Scripture for it. ^nd if none fpeak 
plainly, you will torture and draw 
fome or other to be on your fide, 
ind labour to prove that they figni- 
le according to your meaning. But 
ifa thing diflike you, then you ask 
for plain Scripture. Nothing will 
fatisfie, unlefs we fliew it you in 
icxprefs terms. It is Superfiition ^ 
Will-vporjhipy any thing, but good, 
unlefs we produce a text in fomany 
words to confirm it. Of the fame 
gifting humour was the late Amy, 
las appears by their unparailel'd 
[Story, which in brief is this. On 
the 20. oi April \6$y they turn'd 
■Majlersy whom they had long fer- 
ved, out of doors, as a company of 
Self-Seekers, who minded their own 
private, more than the puhlick Good, 
i^out fix years after, finding tht 
good Spirit declining, which formerly 
1 appeared among them, in carrying on 


S2 -A Contimatim of 

the great work (thofe are their Cant- 
ing expreflions ) and the good old 
Caufeitfe If become a reproach: they 
were led to look back and examine 
the caufe of the Lords withdrawing 
his wonted prefencefrom them, ^nd 
among other things they remem- 
bred what Injuries they had done to 
the remnant of the longParliament, 
and that they were eminent ^[fertors 
of that Caufcy and had a Jpecial pre- 
fence of God with them, and were fig- 
nalJy hie/fed in that Work. Jnd there- 
fore invited them by their Declara- 
tion o£May 6. 16^9 (in which you 
may find thefe things,) to come and 
fit again ; promifwg to yield their ut» 
inofl j4IJiflancefor their fitting in fafe- 
ty. Would you not imagine now 
that they would forever reverence 
thefe Eminent y thefe Blejfed men ? 
and that to oppofe them in their 
great work, would be, in their opi- 
nion, to fight againji God, to drive 
away the good Spirit, and to endeavour 
to deftroy the Caufe of God ? -^nd 
yet it was not long before they were 


the Friendly Debate. 6^ 

of another mind. They held them- 
felves, for all this, tobc the greater 
Saints ; the Army of the living God ; 
and fo immutably fetled in his fa- 
vour that they fhould not lofe it, do ^ 
they what they would, -rfnd there- 
fore as foon as ever the Parliament 
refufed to adl according to their 
mind, they refufed to yield their 
obedience. When they voted fome 
of their Commiffions void, and re- 
folved to govern the Army by Com- 
miflionersin ftead of a Lieutenant 
General ; thefc late Penitents could 
fee nothing of God any longer a- 
mong them : The fpecial Prefencc 
oFGod vaniflied, and in a moment 
difappeared. So that on the ijth. 
of the next Oiiober, they lockt up 
the doors of the Houfe, fet them- 
felves once more above their Ma- 
tters; and in an infolent manner 
ieclared "^ all their Orders, J6is ,^ved,\ra, 
'pretended J5is, or Declarations (and ^/u^g!' 
ill proceedings thereupon had or done ) ^Jl^^^^j^^ 
7/1 Munday ^^^ lO. of that Month, 
\tnd on Tuefday, and Wedncfday 
i following, 

6^ A Contimatim of 

follovping, null and void to all intents 
andpuTpofeSy in as full and ample a 
manner as if they had been never done. 
And immediately after they packt 
the Men away after thefe Adls and 
Orders. Nay, this they did, not^ 
withftanding that they had ftilec 
themfeives feveral times, but five 
Humble dayes before this to. ofOBohr, Tout 
anTpe?"J* fatthful Scrvunts the Army ; and pro« 
oaob.5. fefJ^J that having diligently inquires 
into their hearts and wayesj they found 
nothing among them but faithfulnefi 
and integrity to the Parliament ; con^ 
eluding their addrefs in this mannei 
that notwithjianding all endeavours ti 
the contrary, they would 9 hy the help 
of Gody he found faithful to themi 
Were not thefe gallant fellows i 
Wonderful confiant to their Princi- 
ples and Profeflions? ^JUightilj 
overawed hy the pre fence of God ; Sin* 
gle-hearted, and faithful to theil 
word r* Yes, by all means , yotii 
mull needs fay ; for of fuch as thefe 
a great part of the Churches of the 
Saints is now compofed. And faith- 

the Friendly Debate. 6 ^ 

ful they were to themfelves ; and that 
was enough. Conftant to this prin- 

\ ciple, that they were alway in the 
right; and what would you have 
more? They could Catit ftill in 
Scripture language, and therefore 
God was not withdrawn from then). 
They could fall and pray ftill, and 
had a power to turn even the Lords- 
day, into a day of Humiliation ; and 
therefore the Good Spirit had not 
forfaken them. They hated Jnti- 
chrifl, that is us ; and were refolved 
to burn the flefh of the Whore with 

, fire, and fo ftill remained the ^rmy 
of the Lord ofhofls. For as if they had 

; fome fuch work in hand as the Apo- 
ftles had, they call upon all the God- 
ly in the nation to fay on their he- 
h3.\f, who are fufficient for thefe things^ 
and to cry aloud for them before the 
Throne of Grace, that the Lord him- 
felf would appear, and carry on hU work 
in their hand. And great reafon there 
was to expedt it ; fince they had once 
more injur'd thofe, who aflerted his 

i caufe ; and done that very thing, for 
F which 

66 A Continuation of 

which ( as they faid, ) he had before 
withdrawn his wonted prefence from 
them. O the Impudent foreheads of 
thefe Men ! O the Sotajhrjefi of the 
People, that will be ftill cofened by 
fuch like Canters ! Will you never 
open your eyes and fee how vain their 
pretences to the Spirit are ? Will 
you never be convinc'd of their pre- 
fumptuous Boaftings , and empty 
Confidence ? Will you ftill believe 
that thefe men are highly illumina- 
ted, who call that darknefs, which 
a little while ago was light ; and then 
crofs themfelves again, and fay no ; 
it is but Darknefs ? Are thefe the 
men whom we muft all follow ; who 
run, we fee, in an endlefs round of 
contradi(5ling their own Profcflions ? 
or muft we fliut our eyes, and give 
them our hand that they may lead us 
whither they pleafe ? Muft we for- 
get all that is paft, and believe they 
are now pofTeft with an infaHihle Spi- 
fit ? This is the thing no doubt, they 
defire. We muft refign our belief 
to their Declarations. We muft al- 


the Friendly Debate. 67 

3W all their Reafons and Excufcs, 
^hatfoevcr they be. We mufl:, at 
sail, furter them to juftifie them- 
slves by thofe very things which ^ 
hey formerly^ condemn'd ; and fay 
ere a word. And then we love them; 
hen we favour the people of God ; 
hen they have fome hopes of us; and 
t's poflible God may have mercy on 
:s, though we be out of the way and 
iO not follow them. 

I know you will fay, that fuch as 
OM, are none of the jirmy- Saint s : 
;hat you condemn theirPra(fl:ices,and 
I ate their leud pretences to Religion 
s a great fcandal to it: All which I 
erily believe* But;, let me tell yo'j, 
jhe Army had a copy fet them of un- 
jonftancy and double dealing by 
ihofe whom you admired. For there 
vas a time when the Lords and Com- 

nons could fee fome good in the L/- 

ur^y and Government of the Church 
;)y Law eftabliflied. Nay more than 

hat; they made a Declaration "^ ,'^Ap«-ji. 9. 

aufed it to be printed and publiflied 
In all Market Towns,^ That they vrouU 

F 2 tak^ 


^2 A Continuation of 

take away nothing in the one or the o 
ther, hut what fhould he evil andjufilj 
offenjive, or at leajl unnecejfary am 
burdenfome. And yet when they hac 
more power, they were of anothe: 
mind. Every thing was offenfive 
at leaft unneceflary and burdenfome 
nothing would ferve but taking awaj 
all the CommonPrayer ; and plucking 
up Epifcopacy by the very roots. The 
reafon, I fuppofe> was, becaufe thi. 
became as neceflary to promote thel 
Defigns in procefs of time ; as thai 
Declaration was at the beginning 
If they had refted there, and gone n( 
farther , they had loft the hearts o 
the moft fpiritual ; who would neve 

Beam of ^'^^^ ^^^^ f^^^ ^ gloriow annotnting up 

i-'shtby on them from the Lord, as now ap 

peared. Now the wcry fifth kingdon 

men, could not but fee it , and ac 

knowledge it in Print : though i 

was not long before they alfo chang' 
like all the reft; and had loft th( 
fight of this glory, being able to fpj 
no UnBion any where upon them 
fclyes. For they helpt to profan( 

• th< 

.the Friendly Debate. 6g 

le Crown of thefe annointcd ones, 
id caft out the greateftpart of them, 
5 if they were but fcum and filth. 
;ut I think its belt to trace your win- * 
ings and turnings no further; for 
^ar they lead us too far out of the 

A^. C. A good Refolution. Too 
\uch of one thing you know is good for 

C. True. And I think the firft 

ingi faid about your pretences of a 
[icit Indulgence , is fufficient to 

ew, that you are perfecflly like men 
i| danger of drowning, who catch 
bid indifferently of what comes 
itxttohand; be it a naked Sword or 
'i[ hot Iron. 

\' N,C. Pray make an end of this : 
fr you have quite tired me with 
^ur Difcourfe. In which you have 
'Itgely proved the truth of the corn- 
ton talk , that you are of a harfh, 
m a bitter and jeering Spirit, and was 
fSJacholerick mood when you wrote 
'^ur Book. 

^^ * C Rather, they that fay fo, prove 
F 3 what 

70 A Comnuatkm of 

what 1 have been faying all this time 
that they blow hot and cold out ot* 
the fame mouth ; and condemn that 
in others which they ailow^ nay, 
praife in themfehes. For you (hall 
hear them call that Salt and Smarr- 
nefs of wit in one whom they lore ; 
which is Bitternefs and jeering in him 
whom they hate. And that paflcs 
for innocent Mirth and Pleafantnefs 
in one of their party ; which is Levi- 
ty and Frothinefs in one of ours.Nay, 
it is Zeal for God and his caufe if you 
aggravate the faults of other men, or 
ra(hly charge and bring evenafalfc 
Accufation againft your Betters : bul 
it is malignity of Spirit , hatred d 
God and the power of Godlinefs, 
we do but tell a plain and true ftori 
of your mifcarriages. No man eve 
pppofed you refolutely, but you fai< 
he raild. No man difcovered you 
Partiality and other vices ; but yo 
complained of his Bitternefs, an 
faid he was in a rage againft you 
by this you meant nothing elfe, bi 
that 1 write with fome heat and can 


the Friendly Debate, n\ 

cftnefs, I would confcfs it, ^nd fay it 
is not to be condemn'd. For who can 
contend coldly and without affccTti- 
on abjuc thofc things , which he 
holds dear and precious r* A Politick 
pcrfon indeed may write from his 
brain (as my hord Bacon I think ob- 
ferves ) without any touch or fenfe 
on his heart ; as in a fpeculation that 
pertains not to him: But a Feeling 
Chriftian will exprefs in his words a 
Chara(5ter , either of Zeal or Love ; 
which you know are warm PafKons. 
For my p:::r. I think I haveexpref- 
fed both, but nothing at all of wrath 
and bitternefs. And therefore :, as 
to that cenfure which your Friends 
pafs on me, 1 believe he will fpeak a 
I great deal truer , that affirms the 
! Authors of it were full of choller 
, themfelves. Otherwaies,they could 
inot but have difcern'd a charitable 
fpirit in my writing , and eafily feen, 
that the Indignation I exprefled a- 
gainft fome vices, is fuch as confift 
with Chriftian Meeknefs , and ought 
not to be condemned as an unmanly 
F 4 Paf. 

A Continuation of 

Paflion. Do you not find that iWb- 
fes was very wroth , when Ifrael com- 
mitted a great fin ? and yet his Meek- 
nefs is commended above all other 
mens. And what think you of St. 
p4ul when he calls the Galatians a 
foolijh fort of people : and plainly 
tells the Corinthians that he could as 
well ufe a Rod , as the Spirit of 
Meeknefs : and bids Tttm , whom a 
little before he warned againft rafii 
anger, to rebuke fome perfons fharp- 
ly^ Nay what think you of our S'^i;/- 
o^rhimfelf? was not he angry at the 
hardnefs of the Jevps heart? Mark.-^ .5. 
Was he in any fault when he faid to 
hisDifciples^ O fools and flow of heart 
to believe ? Undoubtedly I m.ay fin- 
cerely and heartily love you when I 
exprefs a juft Indignation againft 
you; and you may as heartily hate 
me, when you feemvery gentle and 
kindly afJedled toward me. It is pofli- 
bleyoumay have met with this fay- 
ing out of St. jiujlin , which is ordi- 
narily cited by our Writers, and 
worth your confideration. It is fo 


far from being true, that every one that 
is angry with others hates them ; that 
fometimes he who is not angry , ns 
thereby convinced of bearing thegrea- 
teft hatred to them. And this al- 
fo, / am not to account every one my 
Friend that [pares and forbears me ; 
nor every one my enemy that feverely 
correSls and lafJ^es me, Befides ; 
there are fome of fuch a nature, that 
nothing but fharp dealing will do 
them good. 7 hey are like knotty 
Blocks , which require more Wedges , 
and harder blovps alfo to drive them 
home. If he that undertakes them 
(faith Mr. Corn. Eurges ^ , once fa- "pfreofthe 
mous among you) jhall dally, and^^^^,'X' 
not flrike home with all his might, he 
Jhall find the wedge about his Jhins.Thcy 
will rage the more confidently when 
they fee he favours them ? They will 
think he fears and ftands in awe of 
them, and fo flie in his face with the 
greater fury. I have never found 
any thing truer than this ; that to 
fpcak fome men fair, is but to make 


them have a better opinion of them- 
felves. They never thank you for 
your gentle and tender ufage ; for 
they imagine their Merit extorts it 
from you. W hatfoever Favour you 
fhew them, it is not imputed to your 
kindnefs , but their own defervings : 
and they perk up the higher in their 
own Conceit, becaufe you have fuch 
regard to them. That they may 
know themfelves therefore; they 
muft not be ftroaked , but fmitten ; 
you muft not gently jogg, but rough- 
ly fliake them ; if you intend to a- 
waken them. If you would not have 
them footh themfelves up in their 
fins; you muft openly dete(fl and dif- 
cover them. If you would have them 
fee the greatnefs of their Offences , 
you muft boldly reprove them, and 
tear in pieces all their pretences and 
excufes whereby they feek to hide 
them. And as long as you are truly 
charitable, and allow all that is good 
in them ; they may fee , if they be 
not perfectly blinded with a too 
fond Love of themfelves , that you 


the Friendly Deb Me. -75 

are a Friend to them, though an ene- 
my to their vices. For (toufethe 
words of a famous Writer ) as the 
coldeft and fierceft winds areobfer- 
ved to grow mild and gentle by paf- 
fing through temperate Regions : fo 
do fevere and fliarp Reproofs pertake 
of the naturc^of him that gives them, 
an^'lofe part of their aufterity when 
they are managed with Prudence and 

It is a very good Old faying , Love 
thy neighbor ^yet pull not down thy hedge. 
We will be kind to you, but yet 
make you to kpow your Bounds. We 
will not fufiPer you to ingrofs to your 
party , the name and reputation of 
Godlinefs. You fliall not pafs for 
the only nice and tender Confcienc'd 
men, nor be thought moreConfci- 
entious than you are. Nor will we 
fuffer you if we can help it, to pull 
down the Fence that is about our 
Church ; thofe wife and wholefomc 
Laws that are made for its Safety and 
Security. Too much civility to 
you, doth but make you prefumptu- 


o A tmummon oj 

ous. You only take Occafion to 
grow more bold and licentious ; if in 
fome things we commendyour ftricSl- 
nefs, but winkat your faults. And 
therefore wemufttell you your own 
(as we commonly fpeak) and let the 
deluded people know, how Ignorant, 
how Superftitious , hdw Defective 
you are in a great number of Ghri- 
ftian duties; whilft you imagine 
your felves the moft knowing, the 
moft holy people in the world. If 
you be angry at this and callitbit- 
ternefs, it is no more than I expell- 
ed from many of you. Fora gaU'd 
horfe^ 1 know, loves not to be curried y 
and a guilty confcience loves not to be 
reproved. Let us go about the one 
or the other with never fo much cau- 
tion, they will be fure to winch. 
Though the neceflity be great and 
our charity much, it is all one; they 
have no mind to be touched. Now 
how necefTary and feafonable thofe 
InftruClions were that I gave you , 
I leave others to judge who are im- 
partial. And as for the manner of 
^ de^ 

the Friendly Debate . n -r 

delivering them ; (hew me any thing 
in my Book that bites , but only 
Truth ; and I will knock out its 
teeth : Which if you think I have 
iharpened too much ; I aflure yo\i, 
it was only to give you a quicker 
fenfe of your Errors. All the Salt 
you may fancie in it, was intended 
only to feafcn you , but not to fret 
you at all. 

N. C. You can make fmooth and 
handfome Apologies for any thing. 
But ftudy as long as you will to 
blanch the matter, they will believe 
your tooth is black : and that your 
voice indeed may be the voice of J^/- 
co^,but your hands the hands oiEfau: 
as hairie and rough as a Satyre, 

C. You are marvelloufly witty. 
And as I have heard you commend a 
fandiified wit y fo it feems there is a 
fdnBified fcurrillity ; and one of you 
may rail with good Approbation, pro- 
vided he do it in Scripture phrafes. 

N. C. What ailes you to talk in 
this Fafhion i Have I given you any 
occafion ? 

...^ C, Since 

A Continuation of 

C. Since you will not be fatisfied, 
but ftill complain of bitternefs and 
RcproriChes; It is* fit to let you 
know, that you of all other men 
fliould not fpeak a word of this ; 
which you have been fo notorioufly 
guilty of your felves. You are 
perfeflly like the Friar, who de- 
cldirnd againfi Stealingy when he had a 

pudding in his Jleeve 

N.C, Good Sir, fay no more; For 
1 fee the more we ftir in this bufinefs, 
the worfe it will be. 

C You fpeak modeftly : But let 
the ifliie be what it will, you Ihall 
give me leave, now we have begun; 
to fpread fome oi the Dung that you 
have thrown in our Faces. And I 
(hall the rather undertake it, becaufe 
it will ferve another purpofe. For it 
will plainly demonftrate where your 
people learnt ail their reviling Lan- 
guage '^ and that your Minifters have 
been fo far from reproving them for 
it, that iu truth they taught them 
how to blafpheme , and put thofe 
very words into their mouths , 


the Friendly Debate. 7P 

which now they belch out againft 

K- C, I had rather believe you up- 
on your word, than be troubled with 
fuch fluff 

C. No, I will not be fo much be- 
holden to you. But Knee you are fo 
goodnatur'd, youfhallnot be trou- 
bled with much of it. Let me only 
intrcat you to perufe two or three of 
i your Authors. Firft , there is a 
I Book intituled A looking gla(i for Ma- 
lignantSy writ by one of your ancient 
Minifters, Mr Vicars 'y the famous 
' Author of your Parliamentary Chro- 
nicle, called, God in the Mount, In 
which he treats our Clergy and peo- 
ple with the wonted civilities, that 
your rude People now beftow upon 
us. He begins with the Archb. of 
Canterbury y whom he calls a Curfl cowy 
or rather a r ageing fat Bull of Baflian : 
vphofe hearty he faith, was more hard 
and Adamantine than a nether MUfione, 
and moft extreamly cauteriz'dyycaftig- 
matizd with the hotteft Iron of mofi de- 
fter ate Impemtency And having thus 


8o A Continuation of 

expreffed his refpedts and charity to 
him ; then he greets our inferiour 
Minifters by the name of Baal- 
Priefisy Topi[h fons of Belial: and 
makes it an admirable piece of Divine 
Providence , that the Souldiers who 
went again^ Scotland ( before our 
Wars ) /hould have their hearts over- 
ruled hy God, and their Spirits ordered 
to plunder and terrify thofe fcandalous 
Baal'Priefis. As for the People that 
followed the King, he calls them 
Marble- hearted Malignant Sy implaca- 
hie and inveterate haters ofHolyne(?; 
that were for meer formal Froteflan- 
tifm at large, which U in ejfeB down^ 
right Atheifm, This excellent Trea- 
tifewas licenfed by Mr. John White 
who was himfelf fuch another Revi- 
ler; and called our Minifters by the 
fame names ; nay far worfe : not on- 
ly Priefis of Baal, but oi Bacchus and 
Priapm. And though you may ima- 
gine he fpeaks only of thofe particu- 
lar men whom he put into his Centu- 
ries, He will inform you otherwife 
if you look into his Epiftle before 


the Friendly Debate. 8 i 

the firft of them.VVhich he put forth, 
as he tells us, for this erfd that the 
EWorld might fee nhat rndfiner ofperfons 
our Clergy he. As if there was no 
diflFerence ; but the People wer(J to 
judge of all the reft, by thofe fto- 
ries which were told of fome. And 
truly, fo they did, and fo they do to 
this day. 

N. C. I never obferved thefe things. 
But you muft confider that this Vi- 
cars was old, and fo might be tefty : 
For no man well advifed lure would 
approve of that diforderly acftibn of 
theSouJdicrs, much lefs make God 
the Author of it. 

C. I remember indeed Mr. Bur- 
roughs "^ wonders that fo old a Pro- » vindic. 
feffoT of Religion as he fhould he found g'J^Gan^^^; 
jeering andfcorning at it, ( for he caft 
fome reproaches on his way ) and can 
find noexcufefor it, but the infirmi- 
ties that fometime attend an old Age. 
But as for that adlion of the rudd 
Souldiers, I remember very well, it 
is applauded by M.Cafe, in a Book 
licenfedby the fnmeMr. H'/;/>^ Juns 
G 27, 

82 AContinmtion of 

27. 1542. called Gods waiting to be 
gracioiis, &c. Where he makes this 
one of their Incouragements to ex- 
pe<5l thefallofE^^^/of/, becaufe God 
had fo vponderfuUy wrought upon the 
Spirits of men, particularly on thofe 
fouldiers, who went, he faith, to ftght 
the Bijhops Battles in Scotland ; that 
they pulCd down the Railes, Threatned 
the Priefisy and kept fuch a Vijitation 
in their progrefi, as the Bijhops hardly 
ever had done fince ^ueen Elizabeths 
dayes. This he faith, p. 119. was 
the Finger of God, the work of him 
that created the Spirit of man. 

N.c, You tell me News. 

C. It's very ftale. But no news at 
all to us who are well acquainted 
with their pitiful way of arguing. And 
1 heartily wifli your Minifters would 
ferioufly confidler, upon this occafi- 
on, thefe two things. Firft, how 
wretchedly they were wont to reafon, 
and how they abufed the poor people, 
by incouraging them to draw the 
greatefi hopes from the Jlightefi 
grounds. For what Connexion is 


the Friendly Debate, 8 3 

there between thefe two things ? The 
diforderly Souldiers were uncivil to 
our Minifters, and prophaned our 
Churches as they went into thcNorth, 
therefore the fall oiBabjlon is near at 
hand ? It is juft like the reafoning of 
Mr. Henderfon who told the Parlia- 
ment that the Fajl which they kept on 
^t* Johns day^wa^ aprefage that by the » sermon 
hleffing of God on theirs and the JJfem- ^q^^;^^' 
hlies proceedings y the Superflitionofcb- 
ferving Chriftma^ jhould flwrtly expire, 
I and that it vpoa at its I afigajp. As if one 
fhould fay,there was a folemn Faft in- 
dicfted(as they fpeak)in the Church of 
Scotland on the fecond Lords day mSep, 
1542. for the promotingUnity inReli- 
gion,& Uniformity in Government: "^ ' Wiea. 
& theOfficers of the Army at Walling- fignants% 
ford houfe turned that Feftival again '^fr^?"^;^, 
into a day of Humiliation ; therefore '^^^• 
that foJemn remembrance of Chrifts 
Refurre(fl:ion fliall fliortly ceafe, and 
Chriftianity fall to the ground. 

N.C^ I am afhamed of the incohe- 
rence of fuch Difcourfcs. 

C. So fhould they be too? and do 
G 2 pub- 

gA A Continuation of 

publick pennance for it. As alfo for 
their grofs hypocrifieand partiality 
in aflfuming a power to themfelves, 
Icfs than which they condemn 
in other men. Forthej^ may turn 
it fecms a Fefiival of our Lords ap- 
pointing into a Fafl; but we may 
not make a Fefiival in honour of him. 
I would defire them alfo to confider 
in the fecond place, whether their 
Connivance at, nay, their Approba- 
tion of fuch things as were done 
without any Authority ; I may add, 
their praifing the blind zeal of pri- 
vate men who took upon them to be 
Reformers; and, more than that, 
their imputing it to the work of the 
Spirit and the mighty power of God ; 
did not help to embulden the Army 
afterward to do thofe things which 
they themfclves abhorr'd ; with a 
perfwafion that they were moved by 
the Spirit , and had a call from the 
Lord, though no Authority from 
men ? It is a thing much to be laid to 
heart, and then honeftly to be con- 
ftfled ; and publickly bewailed. And 


the Friendly Debate. 85 

when we fee them To humble and 
finccreasto tnkefhame to themfelvs 
for what they have done ; we fhall 
all have the better opinion of them. 

N. C. I hope thefe fpeeche* may 
be imputed to the rafhnefsofa few 
men ; at leaft they were not approv- 
ed by any Authority. 

c. Think you fo i How came Mr, 
Wilfons Sermon then before the Par- 
liament to be printed by their Order, 
z8 S'^/7M642. In which he calls the 
Clergy about the King, Croaking 
Frogs that crept into Kings Cham- 
bers : m^o are known hy the gutter 
( there he thought lay a jeft ) whence 
they come ; out of the mouth of the Dra- 
gon, out of the mouth of the Reafi and 
thefalfe Prophet, They are the ^irits 
of Devils which go forth unt9 the Kings 
of the Earth to gather them to battle, 
&c. Ihe Frogs head « like their Caps 
[Quadrata ranarum Capita J Here 
if work for the Parliament, that the 
King may have no more Croakers in his 

And here ( I may add, ) is a tail: of 
G 3 youf 

Z6 "A CmtimaHon oj 

your fanBified wit, or rather, devout 
Railing ; though borrowed, alas ! 
in great part from Parous on the Re- 

JSf.c. You take things in the 
worfe part, when you hear or read 
our Sermons. 

C, You would have faid, perhaps, 
if you had read Mr. Vicars, that to the 
hearing of the Word there came at weU 
ears of Scorn, as ears of Corn, For 
fureyou could not but have remem- 
bred fuch an admirable piece of wit 
as this, which you may find in his 
Epiftle to the Reader. 

NX, We do not regard Wit, 
nor pretend to it, 

C. It is not becaufe you do not 
love it. For according to the Pro- 
verb ; John would wipe hU Kofe if he 
had it, 

i\Z. C. There is wit in picking a 
lock ; but it is better to let it alone. 
And therefore 1 will not vie Proverbs 
with you. 

C You are juft like the Gentle- 
men we are fpeaking of, who do 


the Friendly Debate^, 8 j 

things and know it not : nay then do 
them, when they fay they will not. 
Mr. W, Bridges for inftance, reproves 
the Loyal Convert for ill language, 
and tells him he feems in vain to bs 
Religious if he refrain not his tongue: 
when as he himfelf had, juft before , 
let his tongue loofe in a moft riotous 
manner againft us ; Telling him that 
the Cathedrals rrere a N'efi and Cage of 
all unclean Birds y a harbour of dumb 
DogSf proud Prebends, and a crew of 
Ale-fvrilling Singing men: And that 
they came daily to offer near the Holy 
Tablet the blind Whelps of an Ignorant 
Devotion 'y of which one may fay, a4 tht 
jipoftUy the things which the Heathen 
offer infacrifice to their Idols, they offer 
them to Devils and not to God. Nay, 
as if his tongue was fet on fire of Hell 
and could not be tamed, immediately 
after he had given that caution out of 
S.James, befalls into a rage again; 
and in a moft nafty manner compares 
our Prelates to Swine lying in their 
Ordure. For he faith Hogfly-Prela- 
tical had been firept but tvice jhice the 
G 4 Can- 

88 'A Continuation of 

Conquefi, and the Temple oijerufd- 
lent three times in the 3. years of our 
Saviours Miniftry. What office he 
dcfign'd himfelf in this fweetworki 
cannot tell ; nor how you will ex- 
cufe this favoury language ; unlefs 
it be fufficient to fay, that he railed 
by Fnllick Authority, 

NXc\ abominate fuch Refor- 
mers: and think they deferved to 
keep Hoggs, rather than feed the 
Sheep of Chrift. 

C. I am glad to hear you fay fo : 
And hope you as much adhor Mr. 
Hughes his Reproaches, who fayes, 
the Common-Prayer may he likened fit' 
ly to the abomination of Defolation 
fianding in the holy place. 

N.c, By what you told me before, 
I could expecft no better from him ; 
whom I think worthy to have been 
preferred to the fame office with the 

C. But you would expedl better 
language, would you not? from two 
fuch Holy men as Mr. Alliny and Mr. 
Shepheard, the famous New-England 
Preachers ? N.C 

' the Friendly Debate. 8p 

N. c. They fure were more Con- 
fcicntious than to utter any foul 

c\ Yet they tell you, the Englijh 
Service-Book hath Hunk above ground 
twice 40. year, in the "noflrils of the 
godly, nho breathed tn the pure air of 
Scripture, Defence of the 9. politi- 
ons. p. 61. 

i\r.c. No more of this Noifom 
language^ I bcfeech you: which is 
enough to poifon the Air we breath 

C. As it hath done already : and fo 
diffufed its venome among your peo- 
ple, that they are generally infccfled 
with this PJague. Nay, they not 
only do fuch things themfelves, but 
take pleafure in them that do them. 
Witnefs all the filthy reproaches 
they beftow upon our Divine Ser- 
vice, Clergy, and People: and the 
great fatisfacftion and applaufe 
wherewith the late Cobler of Glocefters 
writings were lately entertained, even 
by thole whom you efteem Religious. 
This flicws what manner of fpirit 
I you 

9 o A Contimatim of 

you arc of, and that your people arc 
in danger to deprive themfelves of all 
fenfe of true Religion : to pave their 
own hearts, an4 make them like the 
high-way ; through which all things 
may pafs without any diflference 
( fave only a few innocent Ceremo- 
nies ) even whole Cart-loads of dung 
and filth. And of the very fame fpi- 
rit, I mufl: tell you, this fort of Re- 
ligious people have ever been. For 
Martin Marprelate, with whofc De- 
vil this man was pofleffed ; was re- 
ceived with the like Applaufe, and 
his Writings fo thumb'd, that they 
vpere even worn out, with continual 
reading and handling of them. If you 
will not believe me; yet I hope you 
will truft Mr. Brightman whofe 
words thefe are ; as you may fee if 
you look into his Comments on the 
3. Kev. ly. p, 49. of the Englifli 
Edit, where fpeaking of the Naked- 
nefs of Laodicea ( i. e. in his opinion, 
the Church of England ) he makes this 
an Argument of it, that this man 
had poured fuch great contempt and 


the Friendly Debate. ' 9 1; 

Ihameful reproach upon it, which is 
the meaning of her being Naked. 
There wa4 one, faith he, that called 
himfelfhy the name of t^lar-prelate , 
who/it forth a Book wherein he dealt 
fomewhat roundly vrith the AngeL How 
vpere thofe hitter jefts of hti favoured 
among the People ? Horp plaufihle were 
they in a manner to all men ? How wil- 
lingly and greedily \ with what great 
mirth were they every where entertain- 
ed ? There ii nonefo rude and unfkilful 
hut pondering that time in hif mind, 
would fay thus to himfelf, and that not 
without caufe ; Truly f the Lord hath 
poured out contempt upon Princes'/ 
thofe that honour him doth he honour, 
and thofe that dejpife him, /hall he de- 
/pifed. He hath made our Priefts con- 
temptible to the whole People, hecaufe 
they have broken their Covenant, You 
may read what follows there if you 
think good : For it is a great De- 
monftration, how well thofe peopb 
were inftrudted in the Chriftian Re- 
ligion ; and what rare Devifes you 
have been taught to blind your eyes 


A Continuation of 

that you may not fee your fins. For 
you mayjpe^k evil ; and re Joyce in ini- 
quity ; and fport your felvcs in he- 
holding your Fathers Nakednefs ; and 
fancy all the time that you are fulfill- 
in^Prephefees, executing the judg^nent 
written; and pouring out Vials, likefo 
many Angels. 

-AT. c. Ifhould think rather this 
was the Devil with his followers 
fighting flgainft ^JVlichael and his 

C. And a Devill it was, whom 
when you had once raifed, you could 
never conjure down again; nor with 
all your Prayers and Fallings difpof- 
fefshim. l^ay, this foul Spirit grew 
in time fo outragious that he flew at 
laft in a foaming manner in your own 
faces. Which is a thing fo remarka- 
ble, that I cannot but put you in 
mind of it : how you were ferved in 
your kind ; and felt the tongues of 
men fliarpned againft yourfelves, 
which you had whetted to wound the 
reputation of others. No fooner 
had you pull'd down the Bi/hops, 


the Friendly Debate^. 93 

whom you had laid low before by 
fuch fellows as that ^Martin-Mar- 
prelate : but out comes ^Tartins-Ec- 
^Ao which return'd all thofe Reproa- 
ches upon Presbytery. Baal, Baby ^ 
lotty Egypt, and all the reft of thofe 
Hcathenifli names were prefled to 
war againftj^'ow, which you had made 
to ferve againft uf. Presbytery was 
called a Limb of jintichrifl : a tyran- 
nical Lordly Government ; a worfe 
bondage than that under the Bi/hops ; 
a bondage under taskmafiers , like 
thofe over Ifrael in Egypt. Nay that 
Very Mouth which reviled our 
Church, now reviled yothr intended 
Reformation. Mr. Burton himfelf, 
whom your people had fo much ad- 
mired, and brought home with fuch 
joy and triumph, that you fancyed 
(as I ihalltell you before we have 
done ) that day to be the KefurreBion 
of the Witneffes ; beftowed thofe cen- 
fures on Presbyterial Government : 
which he faid ^ would bring lu under* duxXo^iq 
perpetual Jlavery y vforfe than either}^^^^"^'^- 

Egypt or Babylon. Deformity. 


P4 -^ Conmmtion of 

And in the very fame terms where- 
in you had rail'd againft our Priefis, 
we heard the Sectaries railing a- 
gainft your Presbyters : whom they 
called Romi[h bloody Priefis , Black 
Coats y Diviners and Southfayers ; 
Croaking Frogs ; the Devils jigents; 
Penfioners to the accufer of the Bre- 
thren, Nay, the Ajfemhly it felf we 
were told had two horns like a Lamh, 
hiit a mouth like a Dragon, teaching 
the Parliament to [peak hlafphemy a- 
gainfi the Saints that dwell in heaven. 
Your Uniformity alfo was as much 
difgraced as oars; and ftiled the 
idw.Gangr.^^^^^^ o/ /^^ Saint s , the bondage of 
part.p.2i2 t/j^ Church, the firaightning of the Spi- 
rit , the limiting ofChrifi ; and the ec- 
clipfing of the glory of the Father. Nay 
it is pretty to obferve, how the very 
itMyjlery of Iniquity, you had fo long 
complain'd on, was now found work- 
ing among you. Uniformity , Mr. 
Saltmarjh Cxid, was a peice of it. And 
Mr. DeH ( in his Epiftle before his 
Sermon of Right Reformation, prea- 
ched before the Parliament) calls 


the Friendly Debate . 9 5 

Presbytery, a new form of that my fiery 
of intofuity , which had been fo long a 
working. The Beaft, they held, had 
only chang'd ks fhapc, and taken 
another name , and fo they bAiced it 
moft fiercely as you had taught them: 
And told you in zffc£k , what the 
Proverb fays, that Gocfe, and Gander, 
and Go fling, are three founds, but one 
thing. But they would not part 
with you thus ; for after they had 
done with this, then they fell upon 
your darling, the Solemn League and 
Covenant, This became a brand of 
infamy , a Cains mark almofi (as Mr. 
Cafe td\s us ^) fo that if they would .^^^^^^^^ 
fiigmatize a man topurpoje, they would scj-'n.for 
fay , He ? He is a Covenanter, As cheitcr.p, 
you had told us that we made an Idol ^^' 
of the Common-Prayer ; fo Mt. Peters 
told you publikely in a Sermon at the 
Three Cranes, that you keptfuch aftir 
about the Covenant , as if you would 
have the people make an Idol of it, 
Mr. Feak alfo called it, the great Idol 
of the two Kingdo7ns. And fo fit had 
this word been found to do fervice ; 


9 5 A Contimation of 

that at laft one told us , that you had 
got two Idols for our one. For the 
Parliament and the Pulpit y faid an 
^ Outlandijh Gentleman ( imitating 
the language of the times,) are the 
two great Idols of the people, the grea- 
teft that ever were. For it's held a 
kind of blafphemy to fpeak againft 
the one ; and the whole Body of Re* 
ligion is nail'd to the other. It comes 
to my mind alfo, how you who joyn'd 
in the out- cry es againft MalignantSy 
were numbred, in conclufion^among 
them : and faid 'to be grown to a re- 
fined Malignancy ; but that there was 
no greater difference between a 
Presbyter and a Prelate y than be- 
tween an half Crown piece, and two 
fhillings and fix pence. And as your 
good friend Mr. Vicars had told us 
that God had made us to be ^^^ z^'^ry 
drudges and Scul-hoyes of his Church 
and children. So Mr. Peters ia good 
time told you (in a Pamphlet of his) 
that the Presbyterians were no better 
than Gibeonites y who might help to 
hew flone and fqu are timber for a more 
glorious building, N.C. Wi 11 

th Friendly Debate. 97 

N. C. Will you never have done ? 

C, You muft let me remember 
you what a mighty clamor you raifed 
againft the Bilhops , as if they had 
been fo many Ijhmaels that perfccu- 
ted Gods Ifaacs : and you have not 
forgot fure how oft you were called 
yourfelves, the Carnal feed, theflejh- 
ly children ; theperfecutorj of the chil- 
dren of the free woman. For your 
Minifters that accufed the BifhopS 
(and made it a main part of their Re- 
monfirance to the houfe of Commons in 
the beginning of the Wars)that they 
had put fome who were but Serving- 
men into Orders , and made them 
Minifters : favv in a little time a 
whole fwarm of vile creatures (no- 
thing fo good as Servingmen) making 
themfelves Minifters, andfettingup 
for the moft Gofpel-preachers. And 
there was no remedy : but all their 
preaching and printing , and petiti- 
oning againft it was defpifed. Thefe 
taught the people to call th^m blind 
Guides , as they had taught them to 
call our Priefis. N av, their Matters 
H at 

p8 A Continuation of 

at laft incouraged and rewarded the 
feoffs of thofe that faid, Ihefe blind 
Guides travailing as they thought to 
Sion , are fain into the ditch in the IJle 
of Wight, Infatiahle hirelings y GehaztSy 
cheaters, pulpited Divines , and a gieat 
lurry of fuch like names were libe- 
rally dealt to them ; as you may fee,if 
you will not believe me, in their own 
complaint,called ^iSeafonahle hxhor- 
tation, p, 11, Nay the Army it felf 
which had been fo inftrumental in all 
this wickednefs , and magnified by 
thefe revilers as the jirmy of the 
Lamh; at laft heard themfelves cal- 
led, the Abomination of Defolation, 
All which I mention only for this 
end : to fhew what your Minifters 
got by inftrudling the people in this 
cafie Art of difgracing all they dif- 
lik'd, with the names o£^ntichriJli' 
an, Babylonijh and fuch like. As they 
had done^fo they were requited. And 
while the Epifcopal Clergy filently 
bore the punifhment of their fins ; 
they that had caft out their names as 
abominable, were whipt with their 


the Friendly Debate. pp 

own rdds. When they thought to 
re{^rj 04 kings without U6 ; immediate- 
ly they were aflaultcd as Egyptian 
'tyrants : when they expedted all 
fhould bow to the Scepter ofChrifl in 
their hand , they faw men rifing up 
againfl: them as Antichriftian. Thofc 
that had heard their Invecftives a- 
gainft us , imploy'd them againft 
themfelves. And ail the Dung they 
had laid at our doors , was flung by 
thofe that had been their followers, in 
their own faces. If I were indued 
with the Spirit of Mr. Vicars or Mr. 
CafeyX Ihould have faidupon this occa- 
don.Behold the Finger ofGod\ the Work 
of him that created the Spirit of man ! 
See how the Lord over-ruled mens 
hearts ; and ordered thetr Spirits to 
terrific thefe Presbyters. Or Mr, 
Brightman would have taught me to 
fay, The Lord hath made your Prie/is 
contemptible to the whole people, he- 
caufe they have broken their Covenant. 
But I dare not imitate their boldnefs, 
nor talk as if I was infallible, I will 
let them enjoy this particular gift to 
H 2 them- 

'A Contimmon of 

themfelves , of knowing wh!it God 
doth upon the fpirits of men. For 
my part, I think they might be able 
to fay all this , even without any ex- 
traordinary help of the Devil. There 
was no need that Beelzebub fliould 
come to infpire them with this fury : 
For they were already poflfeffed with 
a mighty Rage. That Spirit which 
fpoke out of the Prefs and Pulpit:, 
had abundantly furniflit them with 
this powerful and taking Rhetorick, 
And if Mr. Brightman had lived to 
that day ; he would have wondred to 
fee, how near of kin his Heat was to 
this Fire. Nay, he would have been 
afhamed of his rare way of reafon- 
ingagainft our Church, when he had 
heard fome retort his words againft 
us, upon the Philadelphians (I mean 
Difciplinarians ) faying ; Truly, the 
Lord hath powred contempt upon 
Princes : Thofe that honour him, 
doth he honour; and thofe that de- 
fpife him fhall be defpifed. 

jind thus I have at laji opened this 
rotten Ulcer (I hope you will not be 


the Friendly Debate: loT 

angry if I ufe his words'^) If my la- "^ in ^.Rey. 
hour {hall be acceptable , and the fore end "^ 
being purged , he healed again ; how 
great thanks [hall I return to God ? But 
if the evil jhall he only ftirred up, and 
the handling of it Jhall offend the fick 
and fore parties ; / will yet comfort my 
felf with the confcience of the good dip 
charge of my Duty, and^with theordi^ 
nary reward of a Phyfician, 

-AT. C. Difcharge of your duty ? 
youfliould fay difgorging yourCho- 
ler and Gall. Nay, they will never 
believe if they hear what you now 
Difcourfe ; but that you wrote out 
of meer malice , on purpofe to dif- 
grace them ; and that you deferve the 
reward of fuch Phyficians as kill 
more than they cure. 

C How came they by this faculty 
of fearching the heart ? 

N. C. How came you to ask this 
queftion ? 

C. I forgot my fclf. Since they 
can fee what God doth in the Spirits 
of men ; no wonder they can fpy our 
thoughts and intentions. 

H 3 . .V.C.I 

* o a A Continuation of 

AT C I meant , that they can fee 
by your Book what your intentions 

C. So they may. For I told them 
plainly in my preface that I intended 
only to awaken them to fee their Er- 
rors. But it feems their Spirit lookt 
into mine when I wrote thofe words, 
and could fee my thoughts better 
than my felf. Hath tfi B. or his 
difciples had fome Revelation about 
this matter ? 

i\r. C None but what they receiV" 
ed from your Book, which contra- 
dic5ls, they think, your Epiftle, and 
declares the hatred you bear to them. 

C, To their Schifmatical fpirit 
you fliould have faid. For 1 can fin- 
cerely profefs, as Mr. Edwards doth 
in another cafe, That I have noperfon- 
al quarrel with any of them, no old 
r^ef. to grudge y or formef difference ; and 
■ tapoog. ^^^^^^^^ had not Truth confirained me, 
I had out of refpeB and love to fome of 
them, forhorn to fay any thing of thefe 
matters. ''And therefore let not 
'' my Book by reafon of its truth and 

'^ plain- 

the Friendly Delate. 103 

<< plainnefs be branded for a bitter, 
^^ railing and malitious Writing: 
^' But let tbcm confider that they 
*^ need fuch fi Book as doth not flat- 
''ter and extol them , but be plain 
*^ and free with them. For the truth 
" is (as he goes on) they have been 
** too much Hatter'd , both in their 
*' Perfons and Churches ; and are 
^^-undone for want of being plainly 
^' and freely dealt withall. A Candle 
" hath been too long held to them ; 
'^ I hope my Book may do them much 
'' good , to abate their fwelling and 
^^ confidence. And if many of our 
"Minifters would deal more plainly 
" with them , it would be better both 
" for them and us. I remember a 
paflage concerning Luther in an 
Epiftle of Calvin's to ^Melandlhon 
(they are ftill the fame mans words) 
which the perfons being changed, 
may be fitly applied to my pur- 
pofe. If there were that mind in us 
alif that ought to. he ; perhaps fome re- 
medy might he found. ^And certainly 
we tranfmit an unworthy Example to 
H 4 pofte- 

o^ A Contimation of 

pofierity, while we caft away all liberl}, 
rather than ojfend a few men : WiU not 
their vehemency rife and grow the morey 
while all heay with them, andfuffer all 
things from them ? Undoubtedly it 
will. Our bafe filence doth but make 
them open their mouths wider to 
declaim againft us. We cherifh 
their infolent behaviour while we 
make no Oppofition and give no 
check to their violence. They ima- 
gine we allow them to be fo worthy 
as they fancy themfelves , while we 
fit ftill , and only fee and hear their 
Folly. And therefore to fhewthat 
we know them , not that we hate 
them, I took the Freedom to write 
thofe things which you accufe of 

N. C But , as I told you > they 
tend to their Difgrace. 

C. No man ought to think himfelf 
difgraced by Truth, nor reproached 
by juft Reproof. He fliould rather 
think he diflionors himfelf, a thou- 
fand times more , by ftill perfifting 
in his Errors, and juftifying his 


the Friendly Dehate] 105 

faults. And if you refolve upon this 
Courfe, and feek rather to caft re- 
proaches on us than amend your 
felves ; I doubt not it will turn at 
laft to youi^ greater difgrace , and 
make you more vile in the efteem of 
all indifferent men. 

iV. C. Affure your felf you had 
better have been otherwife imploy'd, 
and never have meddled in this bufi- 

C. I am not afraid of any evil 
Tongue, nor of any thing elfe that 
man can do unto me : But, as your 
Mr. Cartwright once faid, am of Al- 
cibiades his mind ; who, trufting to 
the power of Truth , when one lift 
up his ftafT ready to fmite him if he 
would not ho)d his peace , boldly re- 
ply ed, Smite me, fo thou wilt hut hear 

N. C. No, they will not fmite, 
but they will defend themfelves. 

C. With all my heart. But be 
you afTured , as he faid in another 
cafe, their heels will fooner ake with 
kicking againft the prick:, than it 


105^ A Continuation of 

fuffer any hurt, by receiving their 
broken and ftrengthiefs Refiftance. 

M.C. You are very warm, and 

C. To tell you the very truth I 
have long obferved in the fiery men 
that oppofe our Church, a llrange 
Pride and conceit of the godlinefs of 
their own party beyond all reafon ; 
together with a moft fiiameful de- 
fpifalofus, as if our Piety were lit- 
tle or none at all. This moved my 
Indignation: and it will ftir, I think, 
the fpirit of any honeft and cordial 
Chrifl:ian,to read fuch haughty Cen- 
fures as thefe from the mouth of your 
moft famous Divines. That the Bi- 
/hops are a generation of the Earth ; 
earthly, and favour not the things ofQod. 
They are the words of Mr. Paul 
Baines, approved by no lefs man than 
D. jimesy who is pleafed to add in 
his great modefty, that there vpos as 
much agreement between them in theix 
management of Religion ( except two 
or three)and their powerfulPreacherSydHs 
between the light which comes down from 


the Friendly Debate. lO-j 

Heaven, and that thick mijl which art- 
Jesfrom the lovreflpitt^ And that there 
if more of God and hU Religion in fome 
one congregation of a flenc'd Miniftery 
than in all the BijJms families in Eng- 
land, I appeal to all the world whe- 
ther I had not reafon to Itomack 
thefe proud vaunts, and fcornfal 
fpeeches. And whether it wzs not 
abfolutely, neceffary to let you fee 
the emptinefs and flatnefs ( to fay no 
worfe ) of thofe men, who now infult 
over us in like manner; and would 
bear the world in hand that they are 
the only powerful Preachers, who 
alone favour the things of God. 

N.C, You have only cull'dafew 
fayings out of one or two Books 

C, They ftiould have thankt me 
for that. And might have feen if 
they pleafed, by that moderationf 
that 1 was not dcfirous to publifh 
their (hame more than needs: but 
ftudied their amendment by difclofe- 
ing a little of their folly, and con- 
cealing the reft. If they will not be- 
lieve but that I did my worft, and re- 

io8 A Continuation of 

vealed all I knew ; let them but fig- 
nify this diftruft of my Charity, and I 
fliall give them abundant fatisfadlion. 
Mr. T W. I am fure hath no caufe to 
complain, who with fo much labour 
brings forth childifli fancies, and is 
fo curious to fpeak abfurdly, and 
takes fo much care to avoid ferious 
and folid fenfe in the moft weighty 
Arguments, that his great Pains; is 
confpicuous in thefe Defedls. Of 
this 1 did but give a fmall taft, and 
that, not out of the worft of his con- 
ceits; which he ought to look upon as 
the Civility of a Friend, and not as 
the want of skill in an enemy. As 
forMr, W.B, I confefs ingenuoufly, 
I faid a little the more of him , be- 
caufe you have been too long guU'd 
by fuch pretenders to Myfteries and 
Spirituality. Yet I do not think I 
faid enough, but ought to have told 
you plainly, thathclsoneofthe prin- 
cipdl Impoflors that have perverted the 
Truth as it is in Jefus, and adulterated 
the Chriftian Religion in this Nation. 
He fpoiies almoft all the Holy Scrip-- 


the Friendly Debate'. log 

ture he meddles withal ; and turns it 
into an idle tale of thefe times, and 
makes it fay whatfoever it plcafes 
him and his Profelytes to hear. 
Which when J ferioufly confider, I 
cannot but fay with a little alteration 
as one doth, on another occafion, 
to his Countrymen. ^'That it is a 
*^ fliame there are laws againft thofe 
*' who counterfeit CoyneSj, and fal- 
*^ fify Merchandizes ; yet fuch are 
*^ permitted who Sophifticate our 
" Divinity, and corrupt the Holy 
^' Scriptures, and turn our Religion 
'^ into a new fancy and device of their 
*' own. The late^r^^^ JPlague is but 
"offmall confideration in compare 
'* with this mifchief ; and if fpeedy 
^^ order be not taken, the multiply- 
'^ ing of fuch Authors will make a 
'* Liibrary as big as London, wherein 
^' there fliall fcarcely be found one 
" wife Sentence, or reafonable Con- 
[' ceit. 

i\r. C. It's thought Sir by fome 
that you are much miftaken in mak- 
ing him the Author of that Book 


no A Continuation of 

which you reprove, fince it bears 
only the two firft Letters of Mr. 
Bridge his name. And I have heard 
you blam'd for charging him with 
thofe things which he hath not 

C, I think rather thofe Apologifls 
aremiftaken. For why doth he not 
difown it, if it be not his Book ; fince 
it contains fuch dangerous things? 
Or why did not the Preface to ano- 
ther Eook^fince ftoln into the world 
and carrying his name in the front of 
it, inform us that this was genuine, 
and the other Spurious? But if he 
had, there are very few that would 
have believ'd him. For they are as 
like each other, as two pieces of 
Cloth, that are of the fame Wool, 
the famx thred^, the fame colour, 
working and bredth. There is the 
very fame Canting in both ; the fame 
abufe of Holy Scripture, the fame 
Spiritual pride and contempt of 
others, the fame evil fpeaking and 
feditious Dodlrines ; and in one word, 
the way and Spirit of Mr. Bridge. 


the Friendly Debate . ' 1 1 1 

N'C. Why do you jeer? I know 
you allude to the Title of one of thofe 
Ten Sernions, which he calls, the 
Wdy and Spirit of the New Teftament, 

C' I do fo : ^And am better able to 
defcribe his way and Spirit, than he 
to fet out that. 

iV. C. I think you had better for- 
bear fuch Gomparifons. 

C. Pray let me try a little. It will 
both divert us a while , and not prove 
unprofitable. Turn I pray you to ^ 
the fifth Set mon, at your leifure ; and '^'^* 
tell me when you have compared our 
Conceits, whether of us do better. 

Firft, I fay, the way and Spirit of 
Mr. Bridge, ii not ( as he would have 
it ) 4 Childlike, hut a Childijh Spirit. 
A way and Spirit that hath nothing 
manly; nothing of the ancient Chri- 
lian fcnfe and Spirit in it : but a- 
jounds with Phrafes, trifling obfer- 
vations, and perpetual Tautologies : 
And yet thinks it felf moftgorgeouf- 
ly bedeck't with GoJ}^el Truths, Dif- 
!?enfations, Manifeftations, Difcove- 
riesy and 1 know not how many other 
glorious things befides. Second- 

^112 A Continuation of 

Secondly, it is not a fearing, but ti 
fearlefi Spirit; dareing to talk of 
God and our Saviour in the boldeft 
and rudeft terms, taking a kind of 
Pride in inventing new and mon- 
ftrous Expreffions; and fpiritualiz- 
ing Religion into airy fancies. 

Thirdly, The way and Spirit of 
Mr. B, is not an underflanding, hut a 
Non-fenfical Spirit, An inftance of 
which is this, that it hath no certain 
rule whereby to meafure the love of 
God. But fometimes it made fuc* 
cedes a great argument of Gods re- 
gard to them ; and now it tells us 
that the Crofles are a mark of it, and 
that theChildren of God muft be per- 
fecuted by the World. 

Fourthly, The way and Spirit of 
Mr. B. if to trade much, or mo(i, or 
altogether with fancies and Dreams. 

N, c. Pray do not fay fo. 

C. You may put it in other words 
if you pleafe, and fay it trades with 
ahfolute Fromifes. But thats the 
fame ; for they are no better than 
dreams and fancies. 


the Friendly Dehatt. 113 

Fifthly y In the old time men exa- 
mined and confidered what they believ- 
ed ; and came to Faith by rational dif- 
zourfe ; But now in the dayes of Mr,B. 
Men are taught to believe they know 
not why, and Keafon u decry ed 04 en- 
mity to the things of God, 

Sixthly^ In the old time Chrifti- 
ans were oi^modefi and humble Spirit'^ 
but the way of Mr. B. u to teach them 
to he high and confident ; and to ima- 
gine great Difcoveries and Revelati- 
ons to be made to them. And there* 
fore they wrong'd Mr. Edwards very 
much, when they faid his Gangr^na 
was full of lyes, becaufe he told 
ftrange ftories of men that pretended 
to have had Revelations, and feen 
Vijjons : for we find Mr. J5. is one of 

Seventhly, In the old time Humili- 
ty, Purity, Righteoufnefs and Cha- 
rity were held to be things moft dear 
to God;but now in the way and Spirit 
of Mr. B. <ve can hear no tidings of 
them. For he can tell us but of three 
things that are dear to him> His Peo- 
I pie, 

1 1 ij. A Continuation of 

pie, his Truth, and his Worjhip. Thefe 

are his Fl^te, his Jewels, his Trea- 

Jure, as I told you thelaft timeout 

of one of his Ten Sermons. But you 

mull know it is not a new difcovery, 

but an old and darling Notion of his ; 

which 1 find in his Sermon before the 

Parliament, 29. AW 1643. There 

he tells us, Thitee things God loaves 

more f^ecially, HisFeople, his Truth, 

and his worjhip. And it is a beloved 

conceit I perceive among the party; 

for one of his Brethren delivered it to 

Mr.Tiio. the Parliament before him ; and told 

S^^oT them in a peremptory manner, ex- 

Apr.27. eluding all other things, God hath 

1642.P.51. o to ^ . 

but three thtngs dear to htm tn the 

World ; the Saints, his Worjhip,and his 
Truth. But which of thefe he loves 
belt he could not tell ; for God there- 
fore ordained Saints to he in the World 
that he might he Worjhip' t ; and appoin- 
ted Ordinances of War/hip, as means to 
huild up his Saints, Some honeft old 
Ch rift ian would have told this great 
Divine if he had heard him ; you 
trouble your felf, Sir, about need- 


the Friendly Debate. 1 1 y 

Icfs Queftions: There is fomething 
God loves better than all thefc, viz^. 
Holynejs, and all Moral Fertue. For 
I in truth there are no Saints or people 
of God ( but^only in name ) without 
thefe. Take away thefe, and the 
moft Orthodox Notions that cnn be 
in your head, will make you no bet- 
ter than a Devil. Nor will the ex- 
adleft worfhip, according to the 
pureft Ordinances, fail to be an Abo- 
mination to the Lord, if thefe be ab- 
fent. But I forget my felf. The 
way and Spirit of Mr. B. is not to 
talk of any thing elfe, hut pure Wor- 
Jhip, pure Ordinance^j Gojpel ^Admi- 
niflrationsy and fuch like matters; 
upon the account of which they e- 
fteem themfelves more holy, Spiri* 
tual and Evangelical than other men. 
And be they never fo bad; alfs one 
for that. Mr. B, hath a Rule which 
is very comfortable; "^ Humble your'^^^[^'^;,^^^ 
f elves for fin though it he never fo fmall ; 
hut do not quefiionyour condition for any 
fin, though it he never [o great. Per- 
haps you will fay, I do not under- 
I t ftand 

11(5 A Continuation of 

ftandhim: and truly that's no fuch 
great wonder : For, Eighthlj, Where- 
as in the old time men wrote and 
fpokefo, that one might underftand 
what they meant; the way and Spi- 
rit of Mr. B. is quite contrary, which 
is to fpeak that which he himfelf, I 
believe, doth not underftand. Wit- 
nefs feveral things I could fliew you 
in his Fir ft of the Ten fermons, con- 
cerning Love to Chrifis perfonal ex- 
celiencies, without re^eSl to his bene- 

Befides this, Ninthly, In old time 
they gave good proof for what they 
faid ; but the way and Spirit of Mr. 
B, is, to put us ojfrpith a loufy Simili- 
tude or two ; by which he doth all his 

N.C. Why do you fpeak in this 
manner ? 

C I have good reafon for that 
Epithite, but now it is time to make 
an end. And to fay no more but this, 
in the old time the way was to demon- 
ftrate things either from their Cau- 
k%, or from their Effecfls, or from 


the Friendly Debate^, 117 

Teftimony, according as the matter 
would bear: but now it is much, or 
mofllyy or altogether the way of Mr. B. 
to make a comparifon, and find outfomc 
pitiful refemhktncey which pafles for a 
good reafon of what he fayes, with 
the men of his way and Spirit. Ex. gr» 
to prove that an unconverted man 
cannot know how full of fin he is, he 
will tell you the reafon is hecaufc his 
Hoops are on. As a Veffel that is full sinfuin* 
of liquor, and the liquor iffues through^^^^^'^'^^ 
the Hoops ; you fee there is liquor in it, 
hut you do not know how full it is, till 
the hoops are knocked off: hut then you 
will fayy O how full was ijjis Veffel i 
Ah now our hoops are on, and it doth not 
yet appear how full of fin men are ', only 
it comes ijfuing through the hoops ^ 
through their duties ; but a Day is come- 
ing when all our hoops p?all he knocked 
offy and then it will appear how full of 
fin men are. Thus he argues excel- 
lently from the Barrel-, and at ano- 
ther time you fhall find him as good 
inhisreafons taken from another li- 
quor in a hrafipan or Pot. For to 
I 3 prove 

ii8 AContimaHonoj 

prove that fome mens little fufFer- 
ings may amount to much, whereas 
other mens great fufferings may a- 
mount to little, he can give you no 
other Reafon l?ut that God hath a very 
gracious allowance for his people ; a 
little will content him from them 
whom he loves. For which he al- 
ledges the Commendations beftowed 
on the Patience of Job, though he 
i^ri was impatient : "^ true y faith he, ^//^ 
work- p. 47. God did not meafure Job in hU wallops , 
but when he was cold. As we do not 
meafure milk when it wallops andfeeths, 
hut when it is cold-—^- 

N' <^. Good Sir, have done 'with 
this; for it is but the fame that you 
faid before in the former particular, 
when you told me of his fimili- 

C. That's very true. But this is 
ftill the way and Spirit of Mr. B. to 
fay the fame thing over again in a 
new fafhion, and as the old faying 
was, toferve up one joynt, in a dozen 
or two ofdifkes. But to give you full 
ftieafure, I will put another in the 



the Friendly Debate. 1 1 p 

■room of that. There was a good 
Chriftian Spirit in the ancient times; 
but the way and Spirit of Mr. B. is 

N, C, Fie for fliame. That's the 
thing he charges on you. 

C. I know it very well. But fet- 
ting alide the Papifts And a few o- 
thers, who fo guilty of it ashimfelf? 
For it is Antichrittian to reproach 
our Church as he doth. It is An- Compare 
tichriftian to condemn the prefent Ten.scrm. 
wor/hip of God among us, and calP'^'^' 
it Antichriftian. To decry an out- 
ward glorious Worfhip as he makes 
bold to do, is Antichriftian. It is 
Antichriftian to oppofe all degrees 
of men in the Church ; it being plain 
that there were Apoftles , Evange- 
lifts and Prophets ordairi'd by Chrifl, 
as there v/ere high Priefts, Priefts 
and Levites ordain'd by Mofes, It is 
Antichriftian to call white Garments 
legal, and Antichriftian. In fhort, a 
furious, feditious, fchifmatical Spi- 
rit, I am fure you will grant , is an 
Antichriftian Spirit , and fuch is 
I 4 the 

1 2 o 'A Continuation of I 

the Spirit of Mr. B. as I will evident- 
ly prove. 

M C, Do not undertake an impof- 
fible task. 

C. There is nothing more eafie, as ' 
you will foon fee, if you look but in- 
to his Sermon of the Two WittteJfeSy 
printed with his name to it. In which 
you may read the danger we all are 
in 5 if his Vifions and Revelations be 
true. For having told us, plainly 
enough , that fuch as he and their 
followers are the Witnefles , who 
receive their Orders to prophefie from 
Jefus Chrift himfelf , not from men, 
v.pag.i22. from the Prelates , from the Eeafi : 
ofthatserm.j.{^gj^ he procccds to let us know what 
power they have ; which to omit the 
reft, is twofold and much to be ob- 
ferved. Firft , to Jhut the Heavens 
that they (hall not rainy Rev 11.6. that 
is, faith he, to reftrain the highe ft port- 
ers in Church and. State , from their 
fronted influence , which dan have no 
other {^cnk than this ; that they fhall 
be fo powerful as to bind the hands 
of their Governors, and tye them up 


the Friendly Debate] 121 

from being able to adt. And then 
Secondly , They [hall have power over 
the waters to turn them into bloody that 
is, to turn the [till people of a State or 
Nation into war and blood. 

A". C. Surely they have no fuch 
Orders from Jefus Chrift; nor will 
he ever give men fuch power as 

C. That's nothing. They may 
take this Power, though he do not 
give it them. For4ie tells you, 7hif 
may he done^ though not legally . For 
the proof of which , he bids you ob- 
ferve , that though it be faid he will 
give them power to prophefie ; it is not 
faid he will give them, but they fh all 
have power y to fliut heaven, and turn 
the waters into blood. That is, give 
fuch orders to themfelves , and af- 
fume this Authority ; for he repeates 
it again , It may be thif tnay he done^ 
and not legally. What though the 
Laws of God and man command us 
to obey Magiftrates , not to govern 
them; to live in peace and quiet and 
not to dirturb the publick tranquili- 

12 2 ^ Continuation of 

ty : That's a fmall matter with thefe 
men, who fanfying they have receiv- 
ed a Commiflion to prophefie , may 
inlarge it a little further on their 
own heads, unAjhutyx^y orimprifon 
the higher powers that they fhall not 
a(5t ; and then put the people into a 
commotion that they may fifli in 
the troubled waters. And whenfo- 
ever you fde thefe things corns to pafsy 
as he tells you ; when you fee the Wit- 
ttejfes have power td re f train the highefi 
powers in Church and State from their 
wonted influence \ and that they have 
power to turn theftill Nations into war, 
{andfo they themfelves areflainfor the 
prefent) then you may lift up your heads 
and comfortably fay , Kow is our Sal- 
vation near ; For God will bring near 
his right eoufne(^y and his Salvation Jhall 
not tarry, 

N. G. God forbid I fliould thus 
underftand his Revelations, Truly, 
it would make* me hang down my 
head ; if I thought any fuch things 
were now a brewing. I hope for Sal- 
vation in another way, and had ra- 

the Friendly Debate. 1 2 3 

ther it would tarry than be thus ac- 

C. Take it as you will,thefe things 
are near; if he may be believed , and 
\vill not tarry. The Influence of 
the Higher powers he imagines, I 
conceive , are already very much re- 
ftrain'd : There wants nothing but 
the troubling of the quiet and ftill 
people that they may reftrainthem 
more powerfully : and that may foon 
be effedled ^ if his dodtrine be re- 

M C. He fays no fuch thing. 

C. Not in cxprefs words, he is 
wifer than fo ; but it's the plain fenfe 
of his Difcourfe. For he tells you 
the 1260 years of their prophefying 
in fackcloth began about the year 
400, and therefore fur ely the end of the 
time vre muft needs he about % as his 
words are /?. 114. Now if you mark 
what they are to do toward the end 
of the time ; you will fee it as plain 
as the nofe on my face, that he thinks 
we muft needs be about the time of 
{hutting the heavens and turning the 
waters into blood. iN^.C.We 

124 • ^ Comimatm of 

N. C. We are paft the time, my 
good Friend, for if we add 1260. to 
400. the year when they ended their 
prophefie was 1660. O how glad I 
am that he was miftaken. I hope 
we fliali have no wars nor tumults ; 
and that God will open thefe mens 
eyes to fee their errors ; fince no 
powers were then reftrain'd , but 
thofe that would have kept the King 
from his throne, to which he was re- 
ftored in that happy year, 

C. You are an honcft hearted man 
I fee; which makes you lefs fufpecffc 
the craft of others. There s one word 
in his difcourfe which you do not 
ohCcrwCyviZ'. thereabout. That falves 
the bufinefs, and ferves him for a lit- 
tle while. For he tells you the X2(5o. 
years might begin in 406". or 410. af- 
ter our Saviours Birth. If you take 
the former number, then the pro- 
phefying in fackcloth ended in \666. 
the year when they expedTred great 
matters ; and of which fome confi- 
dently cryed to the people out of the 
Pulpits ( before they left them ) Be 


the Friendly Debate. 125 

patient y for 1666, vp ill make an amends 
for all. But it failing their expecfta- 
tion and producing nothing accord- 
ing to their mind ; that* s the reafon 
1 conceive why he hath fince that, 
put in the year 410. for the beginning 
of the years il6o. and fo adjourns 
us for their ending to 1670. which is 
'now approaching. Then no doubt 
he fancies the Witnefles muft be 
flain ( when they have iirft troubled 
us) and after three years and a half 
rife again. For he asks his people, 
p'li$' If Chrifts Witnejfes Jhali lye in 
fackcloth 1260. years, will not you he 
contented to be in fackcloth three or four 
years ? Chrifiians will you not be con- 
tented to he in fackcloth three or four 
years ? And in the next page after 
tells them, Why now, according to the 
calculation , there is not much time to 
come, There is hut a little time of 
fackcloth to come. Shall we not watch 
with him one hour, and wear fackcloth 
with him one hour ? Wait a while and 
he that fhall come, will come , and will 
fict tarry. And then he tells them 


12 5 A Continuation of 

they fhall wear white robes y and come 
out with Palmes in their hands ; that 
is the kingdom ftiall become theirs, 
and they fhall reign and triumph over 

N. C. He doth not apply thefe 
things to us in this Nation , as you 
feem to underftand him. 

C. He tells us indeed, /. 124. That 
he will not apply them to times and pla- 
ces. But thofe words are only a grofs 
equivocation ( which he muft be very 
thick-fcuird who doth not difcern) 
for he had done it already. Having 
told his Hearers that they were 
Chrifts Witnelles , and that now 
they were in a fackcloth condition ( as 
his phrafe is) but that it would not 
laft long, and that before it was end- 
ed they fliould have power to reftrain 
the higher powers and trouble the 
people. What need he tell them 
more ? It was enough :, I make no 
queftion , to make them lift up their 
heads ( as he oft exhorts them) and 
bear them very high ; as being likely 
in ftiort time to have Dominion over 


the Friendly Debate". 1 2 7 

us. And I cannot for my life but 
look upon them as fatiating their 
fancies, with the imagination of this 
day of vengeance. Methinks I fee 
them (to ufe the words of a famous 
Writer againft our Church and 
State in another cafe) like a many 
Tvho in the drought ohferves theSkie, 
fitting and vratching , nhen any thing 
will drop that may follopL them with the 
iikenefsofa punijhment from heaven up- 
on us \ which they ftreight explain as 
they pleafe. No evil can befall us, 
but prefently they pofitively inter- 
pret it, ajudgment upon us for their 
fakes : and as if the very <tM^^rJufcript 
of Gods Judgements had been deliver- 
ed to their Guftody and Expofition* 
they make the people believe that 
the Wttneffes are fmiting the earth with 
plagues , and finijhing their teftimony 
againfl its. But thanks be to God , 
their Reading declares it abundantly 
to be a falfe Copy which they ufe. 
for (to fpeak in his words again) fhey 
often difpenfe to their own had deeds 
and fucceffes the teftimony of Divine 


i82 A Continuation of 

favour ; and to the good deeds and fuc' 
cejfes of other men. Divine wrath and 
vengeance. And befides^ they have 
abuled the people fo oft with their 
falfe Predi<5lions from thefe and o- 
ther Prophecies , that I hope the 
world will fee, thefe are falfe Witneffes 
(if 1 may ufe the words of David to a 
difJerent fenfe) that are rifen up a- 
gainft uSy breathing forth cruelty : who 
behold lying Vifions, and prophecy 
our of their own hearts: whofe 
thoughts are thoughts of iniquity, as 
the Prophet Ifaiah fpeaks , wafting 
and deftrudlion are in their paths. 
And I \jould to God you for your 
part would fcrioufly confider (to ufe 
his words once more) that to counter- 
feit the hand of God is the holdeft of 
all forgeries ; and that he who without 
any warrant hut his own furmife takes 
upon him perpetually to unfold the fe- 
crets and unfearchahle ^J\flyfteries of 
high Providence , is likely for the moft 
part to miftake andflander thetn : and 
approaches to the madneJS of thofe re- 
probate thoughts that would wr eft the 


the Friendly Debate. 1 2 9 

fvpord of juflice out of Gods handy and 
mploy it moreju/ily in their own conceit. 
It is hut a [mall thing for fuch men as 
thefe to grafp at all poorer here on 
earth; when ire fee them doing little lefs 
then laying hands on the Weapons of 
God himfelf which are his judgments ; 
to weild and manage them hy the f way 
and bent of their own frail cogitations. 
It is true indeed, in this manner to 
lit fpelling and obferving Divine 
Juftice upon every accident and flight 
difturbance that may happen hu- 
manely to the afJairs of men, is but 
a fragment of your broken Revenge : 
yet it is the Jhrewdefl and cunningneft 
Obloquy (as he well obferves) that 
can he thrown upon our a£lions. For 
if they can perfwade the people, that 
we are purfued with the divine Ven- 
geance , they have obtain'd their end 
to make all men forfake us , and 
think the worft that can be thought 
of us. If they can make them be- 
lieve that they arc the witneffes of 
Chrift , and wc the be aft that afcends 
cut of the hottomlefs pit : that we are 
K going 

no ^ Continuation of 

golngto flay them, and that three OJ 
tour years hence they fhall rife againy 
and all become theirs : they have pro- 
moted their Defign in the craftieft 
manner that can be devifed. The- 
[till people will be put into feditious 
commotions notwithftanding all the 
Laws ; they that are now quiet will 
be ftirred as with a mighty wind, and 
conceit ( poor Souls) that they are 
moved by the S/?m> of the herd, and 
are doing the work of God , fulfilling 
prophecies , and making the cleareft 
Comment on the Revelations, jBut if 
there be not a fatal blindnefs on them 
I fliall plainly fliew you, that this is 
fo grofs a Cheat that no obferving 
perfon can be deluded by it. Mr. 
Bridge you muft know is not the firft 
that hath fuborn'd the Revelation to 
fpeak on his fide , and witnefs to his 
Caufe. There have been many be- 
fore him who have aflumed the per- 
fons of Prophets, and prognoftica- 
ted their own wifhes would come to 
pafs. But the event hath fo evident- 
ly dete(5lcd the fraud and made the 


the Friendly Debate. 


forgery appear, that he is very impu- 
dent who goes about to fcrve himlelf 
of this old trick; and they prodigi- 
pufly filly who will ftill be deluded 
by it, and feed on the weakconje- 
diures of thofe who have .nothing 
elfeto fupport their finking fpirits, 
but that which hath made lo many a- 
fliam'd who relyed on it. 

For Mr. jivcher ^, you muft know, ''inhisBo<k 
in the year 1642, from this very pro- ibnii' n^^n 
phecyof//;^ tiromtneps, filled the ''^^^'"^•" 
peoples heads with this Conceit, that 
the end of the Papacy vpould be in the 
year 1666. They are his exprefs 
words pag. 44. And he repeates the 
fame again /?. 46. where he tells us, 
that the Witnejfes jhall recover again in 
j666. and draw off" one Kingdom in 
Europe from the Papacy and ruin 
Rome ; and this is that Wo which ends 
the fixth Trumpet. Upon which ac- 
count he adds ( p.6o.) that the feventh 
Trumpet may begin prefently after 
the ruin of Rome , and fo the Thou- 
fand years commence [4rJ'i6 JO, This 
no doubt was of fingular ufc in thofe 
K z dayes 

1^2 A Continmtion of 

dayes to infpire your people with lof- 
ty hopes, and bear up their hearts i 
the good Old Caufe againft all difcour 
agements : and therefore Mr. Bridge 
flyes to thisSandtuarynow, and ex 
pedis the iame fuccefs again on the 
fpirits of his Ignorant profelytes, who! 
have forgot the vanity of fuch Pro- 
phets,or never refledt on the uncer- 
tainty of their Guefles. 

JSr. C Do not trouble me , I in- 
treat you, with fuch relations. 

C It need be no trouble to you, 
becaufe you may reap a lingular pro- 
fit by hearing how fuch as he have 
deluded your expedlations. For 
Mr. Fr. there was another man a little after 
woodcock. Mr.^rc^^r,who in his Ledlures at St 
Lawrence Church about the two Wit- 
nejfes (printed by an Order of a com 
mittee of the houfe of Commons 
27. ^pril 1643 . ) tells us quite ano 
ther ftory ; and will have the rifinj 
of the WitnefTes to begin more ear 
ly. For his opinion is that the iz6q 
years begin between the firft invafio 
of tho Empire ji^.^6$. and the fact 


Ithe Friendly Debate , i^o 

ng of Rome ^An, 410. And the ycnr 
he pitches on, is }8o, or two or 
three years before ; and then the end 
of them (excluding the three years 
and a half in which the Witnefles lye 
dead) fell out about 1637. ori5}8. 
Then , he faith , the Antichriftian 
powers, /. e, the Bifliops,y/^7r the Wit- 
tieffes, byfilencing, fufpending, and 
throwing them out of their places. 
And then there was^r^^^ rejoycing and 
making merry (according to Rev, 11. 
10.) hy the Popifh Prelatical FaSliott, 
as he is pleafed to call them. But af- 
ter three years and an half, i. e^ at the 
beginning of the long Parliament, 
the fpirh of life from God entred into 
them, and made them ftand upon 
their feet, and reftored them to their 
liberty, tothe great aftonilhmentof 
the Antichriftian fadtion. Nay , 
they afcended up to heaven {verf, 12.) 
/. e, were called by the Parliament to 
a more ample condition : and they 
went up in a cloud, i. e. abundance of 
people congratulated their freedom. 
Which was then done moft remark- 
K 3 ably 

134 ^ Continuation of 

ably when three of thefeWitnefles 
(Mr. Prin y Mr. Baftwick , and Mr. 
Burton^ ) were brought in triumph 
from the utmoft parts of the King- 
dom. Then vras the Earthquake 
(fpoken of K^i;. II. 13.) i. e. great 
Commotions which began with the 
Parliament. And d tenth part of the 
City fell, i.e. if you will believe him, I 
Prelacy and Ceremonies : and 7000. 
men were jlain, i, e. Prelates, Deanes, 
and Chapters with their appurte- 
nances, had their honour, places, 
maintenance taken from them. In 
fhort, he confidently affirms the 
Scene wherein thefe great things 
muft be acfted, is one kingdom only: 
And that it is no other but the Ifland 
of great Brittain : and the time of do- 
ing them , fome years before and 
fince the calling of the Long Farlia- 
mentj p. 83. And fo he concludes 
very triumphantly, p. 90- Since the 
Wttneffes are Jlain and rifen again ; 
chear up then : ftrengthen thefe weak 
hands. Verily) the hitternef^ of death is 
already over', and from henceforth ex- 


the Friendly Debate, 135 

peB better dayes, than either our eyes ^ 
or the eyes of our Forefathers ever faw. 
Which is a clear Dcmonftration , 
that thefe mea think themfehes con- 
cerned in all the Good things, and us 
in all the Evil, contained in that 
Book : and that every little change 
in our aflfairs, makes them imagine 
they fee themfelves about to be raif- 
ed, and us to fall under their feet: 
but yet that their high Confidences 
hitherto have been ungrounded, and 
were the birth of their proud Fancies, 
not the fruit of their found Under- 
ftanding of the Revelations of God. 
Andfuch Mr. B's. prophecies I hope 
will prove, who notwithftanding all 
thofe glorious dayes which his Fel- 
lows promifed , is ftill whining and 
complaining of their Sackcloth condi- 
tion ; and waits for another Parlia- 
ment to make them afcend up to heaven 
in a cloud, and flay 7000 men^ once 
more, i.e. according to the former 
Expofition, thQ Bifhops, Deans, and 
Chapters, with all the maintenance 
that belongs to them. Yet this I 
K 4 will 

I '^5 A Contimation of 

will fay for him, that he is a little 
more merciful than Mr. Woodcock was. 
For he only threatens deftrudtion 
to us in this world : but the other 
faith, the power of the Witnejfes to (hut 
Heaven that it rain not, is the power 
to hold all tidein^s of forgivene(?, mer- 
cy and peace, from the Antichriftian 
Gentiles {i.e. fuch as We) while 
they continue fuch : and declaring them 
a people to whom no Heaven, no 
Forgivenefs belongs while in that 
condition, i.e. while we oppofe your 
defires. You may read this/?. 70. & 


N.C. Enough of this. I fee their 

Vanity plainly. 

C. Nay, let me tell you a little 
more, for fear you fliould forget all 
this,and fhut your eyes again. About 
two year after this Prophet, another, 
who will not name himfelf, arofe ; 
and dedicated a Book to the Parlia- 
ment with this Title ; 'the great My- 
ftery of God ; or the Vifion of the Even- 
ing and the Morning Opened. In which 
he tells as the two Houfes of the Lords 


the Friendly Debate. 13-7 

and Commons, are the twoWitneffes 
which the Spirit oF Chrift Foretold 
(hould he raifed up to Heaven y the 
high place of Juftice and Judicature. 
For though ail the people of God 
were Witneffesfor iz6o. years, ycc 
they in a more efpecial manner : be- 
caufe they were not only toprotefl ^gainjl 
'jintichrifl, hut were that judgment 
which (hould fit y and take hit Kingdom 
and Dominion from him, raifed to Hea- 
ven hy the power of Chrifi for that end. 
7. Danr, %6. And therefore he is very 
confident that our Lord reckoned 
the 1260. years, from the year 375*. 
So that the time of the Witnelles 
prophefying in Sackcloth ended 
1655'. Then they were Jlain, i e. 
deprived of their civil power, if they 
fpoke any thing againft the Pope and 
Prelates; and thofe three Gentle- 
men mention'd before, he tells us, 
were a lively Emblem of the reft. 
But then between 1658. and 1639. 
the Spirit of God entred into the 
Hearts and Spirits of the Godly par- 
ty, bothin£^^/^wr^and Scotland, as 


1 3? A Cmtimation pf 

he did into Cyrus; and they took all 
the power and ftrength they had, to 
free themfelves from that dead and 
flavilh condition, whereinto jinti- 
chrifi had brought them. And a great 
fear fell upon all the Antichriftian 
party both in England and Scotland^ 
yea ( fuch- if you will believe him, 
was the terror of their appearance ) 
atRe^me itfelf. And then prefently 
they heard a voice from Heaven ( /. e, 
the place of Judicature ) faying, come 
up hither, i.e. that Wife and Godly 
men would afccnd now to thofe pla- 
ces to do juftice upon Antichrift. 
This Voice was heard firft from the 
whole Commons in Scotland^ in whom 
f^ ( mind it well for it's rare Do(5lrine ) 
aS the power that u in Heaven did ori- 
ginally rejide : and afterward in Eng- 
land, both from the whole Common- 
wealth, and likewife from the King 
himfelf, who fate in Heaven. And 
they afcended to Heaven, i, e. to the 
high places of Judicature, the fame 
time 1639. in Scotland; and after- 
ward here in thif Kingdom. For the 


the Friendly Debate. 139 

refi of the godly were with Child with 
thif great Truth, that the Lord Jefm in 
and by his Saints was to rule all nations 
with a rod of Iron: Which is fpoken 
of he faith, 1 z. Kev, i . &c. And they 
crycd and travail'd in pain to God , 
by humble and fervent Prayers ; and 
to his Witneflfes which fate in Hea- 
ven by humble petitions, from the 
year of Chrifl: 1639. to 1641. T^^/^ y.pag.^. 
the Lord Chrifl, that man-child, might &P-26. 
in and by his Saints rule the Nations 
with' a Rod of Iron, Whereupon the 
great Ked Dragon, i. e. the Popifh 
Lords and Prelates beftirred them* 
felves to devour this man-child as 
foon as it was born : But the people 
of God beftirr'd themfelves both to 
God by Prayer, and to the godly 
party in Parliament, that thefe Po- 
pifli Lords and Prelates might be 
caft out. And thefe petitions and 
prayers were heard of Chrifl: and his 
Witneflfes, ii.Rev 5*. And fo the 
Church did not only bring forth the 
Man-child ofGovernment ( mark that ; 
for it tells you fomc Presbyterians 


J.O A Continuation of 

taught, that all power was originally 
in the People) hutitwa$ likewife re- 
ceived up to God and his Throney into 
the high place of Judicature. But the 
Dragon with his tail drew a third part 
of the Parliament to fall ojfTat the 
fame time, and likewife a war was 
raifed between the Dragon and his 
Angels ( i. e. the King and his Fol- 
lowers ) and the Lord Jefm and his 
Witnefles fitting in Parliament. In 
fliort, he tells you, that what was 
done here fhould be done in all other 
Kingdoms, in the year i6f$. When 
Chrift and his Witnefles (hould take 
the power of all the Ten Kingdoms, 
which Antichrift had, into their 
hands; and Ihouldraign. Yet fo that 
there fliould be fome little reliques of 
Antichrift in the hearts of men till 
the year 1700. Then the New Jerufa- 
fcm he aflures you fhall be built, and 
the Lamb be married to his Church, 
and Antichrift caft not only out of 
the World, but out of the hearts of 

Thefe are fome of the goodly 


the Friendly Debate I 14 i 

Dreams or Vijions ( call them which 
youpleafe) of your Divines hereto- 
fore. And no doubt they were then 
as much believed as Mr. B's. Predidli- 
onsare now. Who if he live to fee 
himfelf deceived, will be able it's 
like to invent fome new beginning 
for the ii6o. years; and you will 
ftill be fo foolilh as to give him cre- 
dit; unlefsthefe things convince you 
of the madnefs of the Prophet. But 
if he be at a lofs, and think fuch a 
blind creature as I can give him no- 
tice of any thing he fees not already, 
I may help him at a dead lift, and di- 
Tc£i him to a Book where he fhall 
find relief All my fear is,that he will 
give me little thanks for my pains> 
becaufe it will make his heart fick, 
to hear his hope is like to be fo long 
deferred. For after thefe Writers I 
have mentioned, Mr.Tho. Parker oi^hevifiom 
New-England printed a Book about phec.of 
thefe things, in which he layes downf^^^^^^ 
two wayes of accommodating the years. 
If they begin when there were but 
dark and weak beginnings of the figns 


ia2 a Continuation of 

mentioned, that was he thinks in the 
year 390. and fo the 1260. years end 
with 1649. Then the Turks will ceafc 
to he loofedf and the next year after , 
they may begin to fall together with the 
Pope, if this way of accommodation 
hold. If it do not ; then we muft 
ftay a great while. For the more evi- 
dent j open and perfeSifiate oft he things 
foregoing was not till the year 600. 
and fo no fhutting of the Heavens, 
no turning the water intobloud, at 
leaft, no putting off their fackcloth, 
which Mr. B. now expedts; till the 
year 185^9. 

N. c. Stop Sir, I befeech you once 
more. For I think you have told me 
too much of this fluff'. 

c. The laft man fpeaks modeftly, 
and therefore it was not afnifs to hear 
him. As for the reft 1 fliould not 
have troubled you with their Con- 
jedlures, had it not been to let you 
fee ; Firfi, what they think of us, 
,whom they call the Jfitichriftian, the 
Popijh party y the Gentiles and Nations^ 
thtfot loners of the Dragon, and fuch 


the Friendly Debate ] l" 4 2 

like Names. S^cow^/y,what they think 
ot thcmfclves ; who are, in their own 
cfteem, the Witnejfes of Chrift Jefus, 
the Godly party, the Saints that are to 
rule the Nations y with a rod of Iron ; 
the followers of the Lamb, who are to 
afcend to Heaven^ the Scat of Juftice, 
and do execution upon us. Laftly , 
What a Sandy Foundation their 
hopes are built upon ; and how confi- 
dent they are, and well perfwaded of 
themfelves without any caufe at all. 
And that indeed is the chiefeft thing 
I aimed at. To make you fenfible, 
they have no ground for that high 
opinion they have conceived of their 
own wifdom and infight into the 
things of God : they being blindly 
lead by their own Imaginations and 
paflionate Defires, while they think 
they underftand and fee more than all 
the Wifemen in the World. So the 
laft man but one, that I named, brag'd 
and vapoured : gloryinjr that he had 
found out that truth ivhich none of the 
wicked Jhould underfland ; neither Priefi 
tior Prophet ; Rulers nor Seers, All 


I A A ^ Continuation of 

is hid and covered from them, and the 
reafon is, becaufe they drank of the 
Clip of the Whore, of which if a 
man take but one Sip, he is utterly in- 
capable to have the Vifions or Myfte- 
ries made known to him. And there- 
fore he triumphs in this manner over 
all our Nobles and Clergy : Who will 
believe of all our great men and learned 
Prelates, that Jefm Chrifi is come in 
the Clouds of Heaven, and isfet down 
upon the Throne of Judicature in his 
Saints and Witnejfes, tojudg that man 
of fin ? No indeed ; they had more 
wit. And yet thi^ the man thought, 
in his felf conceited Wifdom, to h 
Of clear as the Sun, 

N.C. I am fu4iy fatisfied that they 
were much out of the way : And 
therefore more words are needlefs. 

c. That the way ( you might have 
faid) andSpirit of Mr JBr/W^ismoft- 
ly and chiefly to be out of the way. 

i\r. C. I leave thofe conceits to you. 

C. And you will leave it to me 
alfo, for you take no notice of it, to 
tell vou the caufe of all this. 

iV.C Be- 

the Friendly Debate. \^^ 

A^. c. Becaufe I do not know it. 
C. It's eafy to fee that is nothing 
jlfc but their pride and vain-conceit 
)f themfelves; as if God would re- 
peal all his fecretsto them, and hide 
:hem from others. For they are the 
Vdtch-men upon the Tower, the Em- 
hajfddors of Chrift, the Angels of the 
Churches, the Lords Worthies : And 
they that follow them, are the Holy- 
wesy the Dear people of God, the littU 
Flock, the Lambs of Chrift y the Meek 
of the Earthf the Redeemed ones, and 
ithe Remnant of Jacob. Nay, as foon 
as ever any perfon comes to hear them 
preach ; they hope there is a work of 
^race in their hearts, and that they 
begin to favour the things of God ; and 
to defjre the fncere Milk of the Word. 
As for our Minifters, Alas poor Crea- 
tures ! they are the Falfe Prophets^ 
blind Guides y Idoljhepherds, that have 
eyes indeed but cannot fee at all. And 
our people are the World, the Wicked, 
the children of the Evil one, Enemies 
of God, and fuch as remain ftiU in 
Fgypt. At leaft, the vail is before 
L our 

ia6 -^ Cmtinmtion of 

our eyes ; or we have taken a fip ol 
the Cup of the Whore^and that fends 
up fuch fumes into our heads, that 
we cannot poflibly difccrn the myfte- 
ries of God. Hence it is that the' 
meaneft of you takes himfelf to be . 
. wifer than the beft of us ; than any 
of our Bifhops and Priefts, nay the 
whole Clergy put together. And if 
we will not have fuch a man in the 
fame efteem that he hath himfelf; 
prefently we are looktupon as enemies 
of the power of Godlinefs, formal 
fellows, or mere moralifts, that hate 
the true feed. 

N,c, IDoth not David tell us, 
that God had made him wifer than all 
his teachers ? 

C. See how you ftill equal your 
felves with men infpired. From which 
vain conceit and arrogant Opinion, 
I make no doubt, it is, that you take 
every fudden fancy and flrong imagi- 
nation that comes into your head, to 
be an Infpiration of God. And that 
you are fo adventurous and bold in 
expounding the Holy Scriptures^as if 


the Friendly Debate^. \An 

t were given you in that moment, as 
t was the Apoftles, what you fhould 
hink and what you fhould fpeak. 
vTay, fo deep have you drunk of this 
tVitchesCup, andarefo intoxicated 
with felf-conceit and fclf-love, that 
^ou imagine all your Devices, and 
forms of Religion and Government 
muft be received by all the world. 
For your mind is the mind of God,and 
your words the Oracles of God. So 
even }s\i» Edwards himfelf feems tOEpifiiehe-' 
fancy, when he exhorts all people [^J^i^^^^* 
that were waving and hung doubtful 
between Presbytery and Independency, 
to wait upon God in that way of his, 
an Aflembly of fo many learned and 
Godly men, to fee what he will be plea- 
fed to jfeak by them, 

N.c. What is this to all the 
World ? wxre they bound alfo to 
liften to what this Oracle would 
utter ? 

c. You are too quick. I was go- 
ing to add that as they think them- 
fclves the beft people here, fo the befl: 
in the world : and look upon the Re- 
L 2 for- 

•148 A Continuation of 

formation it fclf, as needing a Refor- 
mation. And therefore hoped that ^ 
iftheyfetled Religion among us ac- 
cording to their mind, there would be ^ 
a pattern from the Wordfet up in thif 
Iflandy for an eicample to aU other kirks^ 
abroad. Thus the Commijfioners of* 
the general AlTembly of the Kirk of 
•Direaions Scotland tell us : "^ and therefore call 
toMiniftersupon the Miniftcrs to ftirup them- 
lignants. ' felves, and the people in Truth and 
^**^* Unity, becaufe, fay they, it will be 
a powerful means to preferve our Reli- 
gion, and to propagate the fame to other 
Churches, groaning under their feveral 
burdens, and panting for fuch a Refor- 
mation as the Lord in Mercy hath gran- 
ted us. And accordingly they in- 
didled the Faft, 1 told you of, on 
the Lords-day, for the promoting 
Unity in Religion, and Uniformity 
in Government, and the advancing the 
Kingdom of Chrifi ( /. e, their Difci- 
piine ) every where. 
N.C. None excepted ? 
C. No. For Mr. Cafe tells the 
Commiflioners of the General Af- 


' the Friendly Deflate. '14P 

fbmbly, * that God had honoured 'Epiftie be. 
their Nation in making them the firft ^oi,^^iied 
fruits and pattern of a thorough and ^|?^^^^*"^* 
Covenant-Reformation to us, and covenant 
all the reft of the Chriftian World, And to ti^. 
withal fayes, / am- humbly confident y 
that the fame /hore jhall not hound this 
Covenant y which hounds the now two 
Covenanti^^ Nations , Butf a^ it U 
[aid of the Go^eU fo it mil he Verified 
\ of thu Goffel-Covenant ; The Sound 
thereof (hall go into all the Earth, 
and the Words of it to the End of the 
World. ^ 'p.62.of j 

N.c. Strange Prefumption ! '^'°^^'- 
C. Ifuppofe he could have found 
a text for it in the Revelation, if you 
had prefumed then to queftion his 
humble confidence. For I obferve 
the General Ajfemhly tell his Majefty, 
that if they may but have that Unity 
in Religion and Uniformity of 
Church-Government in the two 
Kingdomes which they petition him 
for, it will appear then that the un- , 
happy Commotions and DivifionshisMAUfh-, 
among us, were but the ^ Noifeof^^l^^' 
L 3 many 

i ^o 'A ContinmHon of 

many Waters, and the Voice of a great 
thunder, before the 'voice of Harpers, 
harping with their harps ; which fhall 
fill the whole Land with Melody and 
mirth ; and the name of it fhall be,| 
the Lord is there. The place to which j 
they refer, you know, is 14. Rev. 2. \ 
Now immediately after this joy and 
Melody there follows, as you may 
fee. T. 6. an jingel flying in the midfl 
of Heaven, having the Everlafiing Gof- 
pel to preach unto every Nation^kindred, 
tongue J and people. That is, as Mr. 
Cafe perhaps might have expounded 
it, this Gofpel-Covenant St. John ^ 
faw, upon the wing, about to fly to 
the end of the World. 

N.C, No man could befo abfurd. 

r. What greater abfurdity is there 
in this, than in the application which 
the General Adembly make of the 
foregoing words to the fame pur- 
pofe ? 

i\Z. C. I approve of neither. 

C. But then poflibly they might 
have perfwaded you it was a good ex- 
pufition; when Mr» Cafe made you 


the Friendly Deflate. i 5 1 

believe the Covenant was an Ordi- 

dance of God, an Holy Ordinance, ^ ^ ^jf^; pla'Sl 
pure and Heavenly Ordinance ; yea, o.^'the fore* 
one of the moll fpecial and folemn/ 
[ being a joy ningOrdinance which ftrikes 
' the main ftroke between God and us : 
t][iQ Marriage knot J whereby God and 
a people are made one: apieceofZ)/- 
vine Worjhip, and, as far as 1 can dif- 
cern, a more holy, or higher Ordi- 
nance, in his efteem, than the Sa- 
crament of Chrifts Body and Bloud. 

N. C. For (hame do not abufe 

c. I am far from it, as you may 
fee if you will but confult his Anfwer, 
to this Objedlion which fome made 
againft it. It is necdlefs, faid they, 
to take the Covenant ; or rather a 
prophanation of fo holy an Ordi- 
nance; fince we have done it over 
and over again in our former Pro- 
teftations and Covenants. To which 
he replies. "^ Tou receive the Sacrament , p ^^^ 
of the Lords Supper once a month, and 
that if hut a Seal of the Covenant, Con- 
jidcr it, and he convinced, 

L4 N,c.\ 

1 5^ 'A Continuation of 

N.C. I am convinced of this, that 
youdonotbely him. 

C. Very well. And therefore he 
exhorts the Minifters to indeavour, 
to JanBifie the people forfo holy a Ser- 
'vice, as the taking of it ; and tells 
the people they muft get their hearts 
into an holy Ordinance frame, Jufl: 
as if they were going to a new mount 
Sinai, to beentredinto a new Reli- 
gion ; and feparated from the Nati- 
ons to be a peculiar people zealous of the 
Covenara, And indeed, he all along 
makes it of the fame nature with that 
Covenant , which the children of If 
rael made or renewed with God : and 
fo confidently applies all the places 
of Scripture which fpeaks ot that, to 
this holy fervice; that one cannot 
tell by any thing he fays, but this 
was the Covenant which the Holy 
Books fpeak of. Nay fomeofthem 
when the Covenant came into Eng- 
land lookt upon it as the Ark of Gods 
* Beam cf prefence, as Mr. Feak tells us *, upon 
^^^ ^* the account of which they fliould 
certainly profper. And Mr. Cafe, I 


I the Friendly Debate. I'^j 

remember, tells us, this wasthefia 
of England in former times, That our 
Fathers knew not this fervice : it wa4 
hid from them ; they regarded it not : 
and thofe times of Ignorance God 
winked at, or God lightly regarded 

N. C, Sure he did not imagine all 
our Pious Anceftors to be Hea- 

C, You (hall judge by and by what 
thoughts thefe men have of us all, 
when I have told you , that in the 
ftrength of thefe high towering 
thoughts, and lofty imaginations 
they taught the people to go to bat- 
tle againft their Soveraign , and to 
fancy the Lordnaarch*t before them. 
They were confident they (hould pre- 
vail becaufe they were the Jacobs and 
we but Efaus ; and the Elder mujl 
fervethe Younger: nay, we the feed of 
the Serpent and they the feed of the Wo- 
man ; and fo they muft wound our heady 
i. e. give us an incurable mortall 
blow. Thus they were taught by Mr. 
U. IVilkinfon, in an Epiftlc before a 


154 ^ Continuation of 

» preacht Scrmon "^ of his : in which he tells 
p^Sn^t ^^^ Parliament again, that they havs 
25x>a:ob. to do with a brood of Serpents, p. 1 5 . at 
'^'* the beft, that we are hut a peice of Pa- 
pal Chriftendom, as hisphrafe is,/?. 8. 
Nay, when the pride and paffion 
boiles up to its height , then they 
look upon us and the reft of the 
world , but as Infidels and Pagans. 
What other Conftrudlion can you 
make of the letter of the Scots in Ire- 

* convened land to the General Aflembly"^? In 
fr^^in which they defire them to fend over 
juiyi642. fQj^g Minifters to them; God hav- 
ing now opened a fair door to the 
Gofpel by the baniOiment of the Pre- 
lates and their followers. Nay,they 
call to them, as if they made an Ad- 
drefs to fo many Jpofiles , and the 
Proteftants in Ireland were but fo 
many Heathens ; Pitty poor ^tace- 
doniansy crying to you, that you would 
co7ne and help usy&cc. Send able men to 
help to lay the foundation of Gods houfe 
according to the pattern. And agree- 

* Augufi. 6. able to this Petition they returned an 
f^^ ^^^ Anfwer^ in the Apoftoligal language, 


the Friendly Debate. i y'5 

telling them , though fhey are loth 
lo jiretch themfehes beyond their cvrn 
meafure , yet they dare not be want- 
ing to the inUrgement of Chrijis King- 
dom. And fo they fend them fome 
men to plant and to water according 
to the direcflions of Jefu^ Chrifi, and 
the Dodtrine andDifciplineof that 
Kirk, wlfhing that they who are 
fent may come with the full hleffing of 
the Gofpel of peace ; and that they 
will with all chcarfulnefs embrace 
and make ufe of the mejfage of Salva- 
tion, Who would not think, that 
reads this, if he were a Arranger to 
our Country, that fome few Ghrifti- 
ans in that Ifland had fent for fome 
Jpojfolical men .or Evangelifls to plant 
ths Gofpel among a Pagan People ? 
And that the Prelates and Minifters 
under their obedience, had been but 
fo niany Heathen-Priefis , that nurs'd 
up the Nation in barbarous Igno- 
rance !* Such is the goodly conceit 
they have of themfelves , and their 
horrible contempt and fcorn of all o- 
thers. From whence it is, that they 


1^6 A Continuation of 

call us the Nations \ asking their 
people when they do any thing that 
we do. Why do you imitate the Cufiomes 
of the Nations ? And there ufed , I 
remember, to l?e no phrafe more ^ 
common than this, when a man re- 
moved his dwelling to a place where 
one of your Minifters was , that he 
went to live under the GofpeL And 
when they inquired of the welfare of 
their Friends, the current Phrafe 
w^as. How do the Chrijiians of fuch a 
Town ? According to the import of 
which language Mr. Bridge takes the 
boldnefs to call us Gentiles^ in the 
» rafiserm.eares of the Houfe of Commons * ; 
^tl^!^' telling them that the Homes ( the 
Kings party) may pujh andfcatterfor 
a time ; hut the Carpenters (viz. the 
Parliament) {hall fray them ajvay, and 
cafi out thefe Gentiles, And another 
bold Writer * tells them that the 
ticktothi Army had often put the ^Armies of the 
A^^'uHy ^^^^^^ fo flight, and therefore muft 
forLibcm- K-g confidcrcd. Nay, he is fo profane 
as to fay > 'Take heed of refifling the 
Holy-Chojiy for that mighty works have 


the friendly Debate. 157 

heeti done by thefe men you cannot dany^ 
p. 12. Miracles it fecms were reviv- 
ed again, to convince us, who were 
either poor L^^/////?j, or Heathen Ido- 
laters. Yea, God did hy a continued 
feries of^^iracles and wonders (if you 
will believe the Rump of the Parlia- 
ment * ) exalt his name in the eyes cf* Dcdar.of 
this and neighbour Nations by their ^'^- ^v^- 
means. But alas ! we were the moft 
reprobate and hard hearted of all o- 
thcr jiliens , that could not be con- 
verted. Uncircumcifed Fhilifiines^ in 
Mr. Cafe's language : Nay , jimale- 
kites y with whom the Lord would 
have war for ever. 

N. C Now you grofly abufc 

C. Read the preface to Mr. W. 
Bridges his Sermon, ^ and judge Pre^cht 
whether I be guilty of that fault or Houfe'of' 

-.^ Com. Febr. 

N.C. What doth he fay. 

C He tells you that the bufinefs 
of Chrifts Kingdom is lookt upon 
by the fquint-eyed multitude, under 
an Hexapla of con fid er at ions » 

NX, What's 

j^g A Continuation of 

A" C. What's an Hexapla ? 

C. Nay, You muft not trouble 
your felf about his phrafe , for he 
tells you in the conclufion of that 
preface, It is fuch as lean fpeak, and 
Idejire to he thankful it is no worfe, con- 
Jidering my defer ts. 

K C. Well then let's hear it, as 
bad as it is. 

C, After he hath done with the 
theological , the Hiflorical and the 
Legale he comes to the fourth confi- 
deration> which is Critical. And 
what's that think you ? 

AT. C. You would not let me ask 
Queftions, and therefore Tie make 
no anfwer to yours. 

C. You would never guefs if you 
did; nor canthemofl:Cy/>/V^/ofyou 
all tell why he gave it that name ; for 
it is one]y this. My money /ball never 
help to kill men. To which he An- 
fwers, well ; '\i you hinder the killings 
quelling cf thofe who would both kill and 
quell m J ours, our Religion ^ Ki:'^gdo7n; 
you become friends of Gods enemies and 
ours; and refolve to make peace with 


the Friendly Dehate ] ^^9 

them , vptth whom God hath refohed 
to have war, Exod. 17. ult. What 
think you now, did not this man 
look upon us as jimalekites^ and 
wifli the Servants of the living 
God y to whom he addreflcs his 
Hexapla of conftderationSy would have 
war with us eternally ? Do you not 
fee what is like to become of us, if 
men of this Spirit have Power again 
proportionable to their Will i muft 
not our name he blotted out ? and muft 
not he be accurfed that doth the work 
of the Lord negligently ? 

N. C. I pray no more Quefti- 

C. And then all your Vidtories 
will be called once more, the return of 
prayers, which you take to be as 
powerful as the lifting up of <LMofes 
his hands. And all the Mifcries 
which befall us, the day of the Lords 
'vengeance for the blood of his faithful 
fervants. For 1 muft tell you ano- 
ther cffedl of your Pride, is 

N. G. Do not put ?ne among that 

a Their 

i6o A Contimation of 

C. Their pride then , is to think 
every favour that is done them to be 
their due , and fo they are bound to 
thank no body for it. God they fan- 
cy makes the wicked ferve them, and 
caufes them to do that for their fake, 
which they had no intention to do. 
And on the contrary , if any juftice 
be done upon any of themfelves, pre- 
fent]y it is voted perfecution , cruel- 
ty , enmity to the People of God, 
and hatred of his Truth and Ways. 
But let them exercife never fo 
great oppreflion , tyranny and cruel- 
ty upon their Neighbours : it fliall be 
cryed up as zeal for God and his 
caufe, Love to juftice and pure Re- 
ligion ; at leaftexcufed, as a fulfil- 
ling the Decrees of the Almighty, 
fpoiling the Egyptians ; and adting 
for the Lord in the day of Ven- 

A^. C, This is your time : and fo 
you may fay what you will againft 
Chrift's 7vitne(?'heariftg people , while 
they are in their fackcloth condition. 
It is now only their witnejjing time, 
but -— C. But, 


the Friendly Debate. \6i 

C. But,what ? Why do you make 

A^. C. The times will mend , and 
he Witnefjing time, they fay, will be 

C. You would have me think then 
hat you fpeak their fenfe not your 
3wn : 3ut I perceive you are a little 
:aken with thofe new Phrafes , of 
the WitneJJing time y and witneffing 
work. As indeed it was alway the 
humor of your party, if a noted man 
invented an unufual Phrafe,prefently 
to form their mouths to that new 
mode of fpeaking : Juft like a pack of 
Hounds , that when one begins to 
open , immediately all follow, and 
almoft deafen one with the noife. 
When a Preacher , for inftance, 
from that text , Davidferved his Ge- 
neration by the will of God, raifed this 
impertinent Obfervation ; that it is 
our duty to mind Generation-work ; in- 
ftantly all Pulpits founded with this 
Docflrine of Generation-work, That 
was the phrafe in thofe dayes : In fo 
much that you fhould hear both Mi- 
M niftcr 

ig2 ^ Comimation of 

nifter and people bewailing it in theii 
prayers, that they had not minde( 
GetJeration-vpork more. Which mad< 
fomegood innocent fouls, that wen 
I not acquainted with the fecret ; bluf 

when they firft heard it, and wondei 
what they meant. And to fay th< 
truth, that was a hard matter tp tell. 
For the Preshyteriansy I think, meant' 
nothing but reforming according to 
the Covenant f the Lord having given 
them fuch an Opportunity , as the 
General Jffemhly fpeak in their An- 
"Prefented ^wcr * to the Declaration of the Par- 
J|^"§- liament of England* Where they 
tell them that when the Supreme 
Providence gives opportunity , of the 
accepted time and the Day of Salvati- 
en , no other work can prof per in the 
hands of his fervants , if it be not 
apprehended , and with all reverence 
and faithfulnefs improved. And 
withall they add , This Kirk when 
the Lord gave them the calling , con- 
fiderednot their own deadnefs, norjiag-^ 
gered at the promife through unbelief, 
hut gave glory to God. And who 


I the Friendly Debate. 1 5 j 

mows but the Lord hath now feme 
bontroverfie with England , which 
will not be removed , till firft, and 
before all , the Worfliip of his name 
and the Government of his houfe be 
fctled according to his will. This 
was their Generation-work, But o~ 
thcrs meant by this Phrafe ; the pul- 
ling down every thing that they ima- 
gined Antichriftian ; Presbytery and 
all. And fome went fo far as to 
think it was Generation-work to pull 
down Monarchy , to hind Kings in 
chaines y nay ProteBors in fetters of 
Iron, And when they were not able 
to do the laft , though they had ef- 
fedled the other; then they fell to 
witneJJing'Work y^nd prophefying againft 
it : For that was the Common- 
wealths mens phrafc,when they fpoke 
of O. CR. himfelf. * the Lords -rmecz^ 
faithful people, thefoolijh contemptihle\iy^^' 
nothings, irreconcileahle enemies to the 
Government of a jingle perfon , were 
puttingup their prayers and appeals to 
the Lord, witnejjing , and prophecy ing 
againji hjm, and the Beaft-likefounda- 
M Z tion 

^6^ A Continuation of 

tion on which he flood, &c. For the fet- 

tingupofhim^ you muft know, was 

in their opinion the healing^ the deadly 

^ wound of the Be aft '^. Though by o- 

'^'^' thers who were iot Generation-work 

too, and thought themfelves as great 

promoters of it as they ; He and his 

fon were called, ^!Mofes and Jojhua; 

ox David and Solomon, as you may 

fee in feveral Addrefles made to 

them. But above all commend me 

to the good people of Chard in Somer- 

The^^ddrefsy'^/^ir^ , who blefs that Providence 

at Leicefter who had given them fuch a Jojhua to 

tothT^fameCondudl them to the land of promife, 

piirpofe. Another phrafe as hard to explain as 

the former : but as greedily fwal- 

low'd, and made ufe of by your 

wretched Fhrafe-mongers , to abufe 

themfelves and the Nation. In fhort; 

All the whole gang thought God was 

fulfilling prophecies, and making 

good the Revelation , and they muft 

help and be inftrumental to him in 

this Generation-work: el fe they might 

be ihut out of the land of promife, 

and not enter into the New Jerufa- 


the Friendly Debate. 15^ 

lem. There was no man of this fort, 
who had never fo little power , were 
he but a petty Conftable, or the like 
Officer ; but he imagin'd he heard 
God faying to him as <i!MoYdccai to 
Hfiher, Who knovps hut thou art raifed 
up for fuch a time ^ this ? Nay thofe 
whom you count the fobereft perfons 
were fo drunk with this conceit, that 
they fancied themfelves or their 
Friends to be j4rjgels porvring out Vials, 
or fome fuch thing. Mr. Edwardsy 
I remember , who with fo much zeal 
and courage incountred all the Se- 
I diaries, and gave a particular re- 
proof to one Durance , who pray- 
ed that the King might he brought 
to the Parliament in chains : fell in- 
to this dotage himfelf , peremptori- 
ly to affirm, that God would honour 
their Brethren oi Scotland to bein- 
ftruments of pulling down the Se(5la- 
ries. They (hall all fall before the Scots^ 
f iith he , whom they have fo vilified 
and unworthily dealt with y as the Pre- 
latical and Popiflj party did. Which 
he proves from Revel, 3. 8, 9, 10. 
M 5 All 

i66 'A Continuation of 

All thofe promifes to Philadelphiay 
heaflures you, do in afpecial man- 
ner belong to our Brethren of Scot- 
land, as *^ Firftf that God wiU make 
fecond part" /^^m come ( /. 6, thofc who are the* 
p.. 193. 194. a Antitype to thofe J^tt/, the Sedla- 
^^ ries, Anabaptifts, Independents, 
^^ that whole fadtion) and rtor[hip he- 
'^fore their feet y and to know that God 
^' had loved them ; that is, they fliall 
" overcome and triumph over thofe 
^^ Sedlaries, t^c, O Church of Sco^- 
^^landy and all ye that are {oxKefor- 
^^mation Presbyterial againft the 
"Secftaries, nourifh your Hopes by 
*^ thefe things, neither let your hearts 
*« be troubled, whatfoever the world 
'' fpeaks againft you. And fo he 
interprets a ftory of a Drum beating 
in an Independent Congregation, as 
afignification, that the War which 
the Independents thirfted for with 
the ScotSy as much as ever an unhap- 
py Boy did to be at fifty-cuflfs with 
one of his fellows, would prove their 
'^Gangr^aruinj, and be a means to overthrow 
3.part.pag.^j^ their Conventicles. * Though 

alas ! 

• the Friendly Debate] 1^7 

alas ! quite contrary to his expedla- 
tion, the Sciftarian Army beat the 
Scots to dirty fubdued the whole Na- 
tion, brought Fhiladelphia into bon- 
dage, and made her worfliip at their 
feet. And yet Mr, Burroughs, 1 ob- 
ferve, one of thofc Independents Mr. 
Edw, writes againft; feemed when 
time was, to have the fame opinion 
of the Scottijh Brethren : and to fore- 
fee glorious things that they would 
do. For he tells the Citizens, cer- 
tainly that Nation U a Nation that God. 
doth love J a Nation that God doth ho- 
nour , andy by whofe many exprejfions of 
his love, jheweth thM he doth intend to 
make them SPECIAL INSTRU^ speechat 
ME NTS of the GREAT THINGS u^nte 
he hath to do in this later age ofthe'S^^Zmi 
world. And it fhould feem he read this J" Q^^^ 
in the Revelation too,for he adds ; We 
may truly call it Philadelphia, jind 
Mr. Brightman {that famous light in 
former time, 50. or 40. years fence ^ 
did Parallel the Church of'PWiXzM' 
phla with the Church of Scoti^md, Phi- 
ladelphia yJ^/z/^^j Brotherly love : when 
M 4 wof 

1 6^ 'A Continmtm of 

vpos there ever a Nation, fuch a Church 
that joy ned together in fuch firm Cove- 
nant as they have done ? Had we the 
like Union among us, O how great things 
had we done before this time ? And then 
he tells them that it is a Nation in- 
gag'd to God in a higher, more ex- 
traordinary way than any Nation up- 
on the face of the Earth ; a Reform- 
ed Nation : A people that have rifen 
up againft jintichrift more than ever 
any people have done ; and that is 
the great work of God in thefe times : 
and therefore certainly God hath a 
love to them, becaufe they break the 
Ice, and begin the work, and arife 
in fuch a way as they do, for the 
pulling down of the man of fin. I 
fuppofe he means they arofe in the 
way of Arms, and refolved not to lay 
them down till they had finifhed the 
work of the times. What that was 
Mr. Burroughs tells you ; tliough the 
woii Jntichriji novf fignifies nothing 
certainly, but what every one pleafes. 
And Mr. H, Wilkinfon tells the V^ii- 
liamentof £;3fg/j?7<^ whatitis, in the 


the Friendly Debate. ^6g 

fame terms. Tour hufinef?, faith he, 
lyes prof cffedly againft the ^pocalyptical}?;^^^^ 
head J arid all his Complices, ** The mo" preach- 
' birth with which you travel, as it 1643. 
was the expedtation of Antiquity 
and Ages paft, fo it will be the hap- 
pinefs of pofterity and Ages future. 
Think not that it is in the power or 
compafs of Devils or men, to make 
that birth prove abortive,which him- 
^ felf hath undertaken to bring forth, 
'and to baptize with the name of 

* Ifraely it bein^ a child of promife If a. 
^ 66, 9. Shall I bring to the birth and 
' not caufe to bring forth, faith the 
' Lordy [hall I caufe to bring forth and 
^ fhut the womb faith thy God? No 
^ faith he a little after, God hath 

< fpoken the word for the reftaura- • 
<tion of Sion and building up the 
'walls o( Jerufalan, and therefore 

* let your Faith hang out its con- 
' quering and triumphing Flag, and 
'' let Emanuel be the ^!J\fIotto, 

Thus you fee what both the great 
parties thought was the work of the 
Generatinn : and what fine work they 


'- I 

i-^o ^A Contimation of 

have made of it; there being a great- 
er growth of Jntkhrifliantfm of all 
forts fince that time, than ever we 
knew before. You fee like wife, what 
work they make with the holy Scrip- 
tures ; and that it hath been a great 
part of the work of that Generation 
to pervert and abufe them. And with- 
allyou fee what is become of their 
high Confidence that they fliouldnot 
mifcarry in their Defigns upon us, 
whom they baptized with the name 
of the Complices of the Apocalyptick 
beafl. Their hopf:s are prov'd- abor- 
tive ; and now they are travailing 
with a new Wind, and are in pain till 
they bring forth a Lye. They that 
were triumphant a little while ago, 
have taken in their Flag and chang'd 
the blotto. Now the word is Icha- 
hodywhere is theGlory^Thcy have alter- 
ed the Phrafcs very much and fpeak 
in a complaining tone. After fo glo- 
rious a progrefs in the JFor^ of pul- 
ling down Bahylorty andfuch Aflu- 
rance they fliould have the JB^^y? un- 
der their feet; they are caft back 


the Friendly Debate] 1 7 \ 

again, and are but at their Witnefjing' 
Worky and Prophefying its Deftrutfli- 

On. Now Mr. Bridge tells us, "^ this **?earonable 

is the work of our Generation, Witnefi- EvUti^es, 
hearing to the truth ofChrifl in oppofition ^' ^^' 
to the wayes ofjntichrift in Antichrifti* 
an times, This is the work of our Ge- 
neration. Good lack! That the 
World fhould be thus turn'd upfide 
down: That their hands (houid be 
lately at the work; that the Carpen- 
ters * jhould heatvpork in eiwry part * Mr. v^ndpi 
cf the Kingdom to cut of the homes: foreTe ^" 
and now they (hould have no work ^^y';J^^- 
but for their Mouths y Witnefi- hearing ? »?• 
work vs all the bufinefs ! ftrange ! 
The work of the time, faid Mr. Bridge 
above zo. years ago, ts to meafure the 
Temple, "^^ ^^y , we are upon the work *^i\^,^,i^ 
of Reformation, building the Temple, 
He faw the meafuring line in the Par- 
liaments hand ; yea, the Stones were 
going to be laid, and all the fear was 
they fliould not ly even. But now 
allisvaniflied,anew Vifion appears; 
the Church is hidden, the Inner- 
Court is not to be feen, and the Holy 
m city 

h'jz A Continmtion of 

city is ({ill trod under foot, and they 

are got no further than Witneffing- 

work. Then the work vpm cafl out the 

^ Gentilesy "^ and now the Gentiles re- 

nnain within, and the work u only to 

* seaf. witnej? againfi them. "^ this is the work 

112. ' ^' to which a thoufand years of Glory and 

Comfort is^ promifed, This is the work ; 

witnefs- hearing to the Truths of Chriji, 

in oppofition to the wayes of Antichrifl ; 

as he tells over and over in his Jate 

se^Truti?s!^Sermons. ^ Do you not wonder at 

this ; tliat the Work was fo long ago 

to cafi out the Gentiles and the word 

bdbrc the was given forth, * up and he doing 

Parlp. 17. ^^^ ^^ itfuUy, Cur fed is he that doth 

the work of the Lord negligently ; and 

with-holdeth his hand from fhedding of 

Bloud : But now they are only Wit- 

tJejfing and waiting for the power to 

turn the fiill Nations into War and 

hlood ? 

N, c. They are grown very hum- 

C. No, This is but a new proof of 
their infuflferable Pride. They will 
not ingenuoufly acknowledge their 

the Friendly Debate. I 75 

Errors. They are ftill as bold and 
confident in prophecying from the 
KeveUtion as if they had never been 
miftaken. And you feed and incou- 
rage their Prefumption, while you 
admire thefe Dreams ; and fuffer 
them to lead you quietly by the Nofe 
backward and forward, juft as they 
pleafe. The Caufe of which I doubt 
is your Pride too ; who are refolved 
not to be adiamed of your vain hopes, 
nor abate your confidences ; but fur- 
rounding your felves with Prophe- 
fies and Promifes, to harden your 
faces and look as boldly upon us as 
ever. The world muft not think you 
have mifled the Mark : but only fup- 
pofe you have received 0, fart her light y 
and that the mind of God is more ful- 
ly revealed; and that now you have 
found certainly in the Revelation 
whereabouts we are. Or rather, ma- 
ny of this fort make no reflecftion 
upon what is pafl:. Anew Fhrafe is 
able at any time to blot out all re- 
membrance of former things. Let 
them but get thh by the cnd> and 


i-yj. A Contimatm of 

there is no other talk; no other 

thoughts. Away go all Objecftions 

and Difficulties, all doubts fcruples 

and fears : All fad thoughts if they , 

have any, vanifli as foon as they hear 

this ; and you may quiet them with 

it when you will, as you do a Child 

with a Rattle when itcryes. Lord, 

fay they, it is Witnesfing'time, How 

fliall thy poor Creature go through 

this Witnesfwg'VPork ? Alas ! Chri- 

ftians, fayes anothdf when he meets 

his Friends, we are fain into the 

Wit nef^ing'd ayes: Bear your Teftimonyi 

Fear not their faces : only let your 

s^^onabie Teftimony agree. If you would bear 

irmths^p. Witnef?, unite your Te/limo.'jy. O, it 
124. 125. . Ji , I / I- • -^ 1. 

IS a jack-cioth condttton, replies a 

Third, Let us mind the duty of afack- 

cloth condition, let us vpear our fack- 

cloth handfomely, I, and then faith 

a Fourth, Chrifl rr ill pay all the charge 

that you are at in Witnefi-hearing. If 

a man have afuit at Law 9 and have 5. 

Qr 6. Witnejfes, and carry them an 

hundred mile, he hears all the charge 

of their Witne(i'bearing. Saith Chrtfi, 

the Friendly Debate . i n j 

/ will give power to ej?lf T Witnejfes, 
they are ^MT Witneffes, Te arc 
Chrifts WitneffeSf and look whatfoever 
charge you are at 9 he will hear the 
charge ; he will hear all the charge of 
your Witnef^'beartng, jind therefore 
be faithful in your IVitnefi hearing. 

In this manner they are lul'd afleep, 
and tickled out of the remembrance 
of all things paft. Nothing elfe 
comes into their Minds, nothing in* 
to their Mouths , as long as the 
ftrength of thefe New Phrafes laft. 
And their Minifters having found the 
admirable power of them, and how 
they ftick in their Fancies, and work 
there, and wholly poffefs them; 
they will not fail to furnifli them 
with good ftoreofthem, when there 
is occafion. And fliould they buft 
change a certain Word now in ufc, 
into one of thefe Phrafes I believe it 
would help to do their bufinefs very 

AT.C. You will not teach them 
fure in this Art. What do you 


C, Preachr 

1^5 -A Continuation of 

C. Preaching you know hath been 
a Word long in ufe among us, and 
no body needs be told what we mean 
by it. But this being an oldPhrafe 
there were fome that grew weary 
of it, and changed it into Teaching. 
And for fome time, who taught to 
day? was the Phrafe. But this 
growing common fell into diflike 
too; and fo they called it, Escercife- 
ing. And when this became ftale 
alfo and pleafed them no longer, 
then I remember, fome called it 
LeBuring, But this would not take, 
and fo Speaking became, in a manner, 
the only Word. And among the 
moft pure the queftion ftill was, who 
Speaks here this Morning ? But af- 
terward this was changed too, into, 
who holds forth ? and what was held 
forth hy him to day? A great many 
more fuch Alterations it's like you 
can remember, who are better ac- 
quainted with thefe matters than L 
But I was going to tell you, that if 
any man Ihould have the conceit to 
call it Witnejiing, or Profhefywg ; and 


the Friendly Debate. \nn 

jthis phrafe Ihould get among them, 
who Witneffes to day in fuch a Con- 
gregation ? or who Prophefies in your 
Meeting ? or will you go hear Mr. J. 
B, C, he4r his Itfiimony to day ? No 
doubt it would take wonderfully; 
and make a Rabble run like mad to 
hear what new thing , this IVitnefi- 
bearing is. For fuch is the fillynefs 
of this people, that they imagine with 
every new phrafe^ there is fome new 
thing to be learnt ; and that the old 
Preachers are nothing to the nerv 
teachers ; and they who hold forth 
have fomething more to fay, than he 
that only Speaks, And therefore 
what will they fancy there to be in 
Prophejyingy :ind Witnefi- hearing? no- 
thing lefs, I warrant you, than a 
clear Difcovery of the things that lay 
hidfrom Ages and Generations; the 
opening of Seals ; the numbring of 
the years, and unlocking all the Se- 
crets of the Revelation. And though 
they underftand never a word, yet 
they will believe themfelves marve- 
loufly inlightned, when they are 
N well 


I ng A Continuation of 

well ftuft with phrafes: and are able 
to talk of Generation-work, Witneffing- 
times , jhutting up Heaven and com- 
manding that it rain not ; turning ths 
waters into blood, andfuch like things : 
cfpecially when they can fancy them- 
felves to he Witnejfes and to have Povper 
v.seafon. ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ prophej} , and to fend fire 
Truths p. out of their mouths to devour the Jdver- 
' ' faries. This is comfortable Dodlrine f 
indeed; that they can but open their 
mouths, and out come fcortching 
and devouring Judgments , at their 
prayers y to hlaft and deftroy us all. 
If this fancy get into their heads, it 
will be fure to keep them in heart, 
and blow up their furious Zeal to 
a greater Heat. And if ever they 
chance to reflecffc on the mifcarriage 
of their former hopes wherewith they 
were big , they will then have a trick 
ready at hand to falve the bufinefs, 
that it fhall not difcourage their pre- 
fent confidence. It was only becaufe 
they were not hot enough , and did 
not open their mouthes wide enough, 
and breath forth fiery and devouring 



the Friendly Debate . I 'y 9 

prayers againfl: the Enemy. And 
therefore now they will call to one 
another as Mr. Bridge teaches them"^, & u6'^'^' 
and fay, Chrifliansy U there a IB ire) a 
Fire in your mouth ? O you that have 
any credit in Heaven j pray now. What ? 
Doth fire come out of the mouth of the 
mtnejfing people of God to devour their 
Enemies, and vpHI you flout your mouth 
and not pray ? Oyou that are witnejfes, 
now open your mouths; for fire proceeds 
out of your mouths to devour the ene- 
mies that hurt the witnejjing people of 
God ; Open your mouths wide ; and you 
that never prayedy pray now. 

Thus they open their mouths; 
but fhut their eyes , and will not fee 
how they have been deceived. They 
maintain their confidence by thefe 
Arts ; and are all agreed in this, ne- 
ver to agree with us. They muft 
have war with jimalek for ever. And M^^nner of 
though they have many differences ^ ru1?i. p.^ 
as Mr. Bridge acknowledges , and are ^°^' 
divided into many opinions and perfwa- 
fions , yet if they agree in this one 
thing 5 which is the main, to unite 
N 2 their 

i8o A Continuation of 

their Teftimony againft us, it is 
enough. This fliali bear up their 
Spirits, and make them hope though 
they clafli and jarr in a thoufand 
things. Let but their witnefs againft 
us agree, and their hearts fliall not 
fail ; but they fliall ftill talk as if 
they were infallible. 

N. C. I was loth to be fo uncivi,] as 
to interrupt you too much in your 
carreer : but you have drawn your 
difcourfe to fuch a length , that it 
would weary your Friends ^ were they 
here, as much as vex your Ene- 

C. I did not intend fo many words : 
But my thoughts ran fo nimbly be- 
fore me in this Argument, that feel- 
ing no wearinefs in my felf, I never 
refledled how much I might tire you. 
Pray pardon me. 

M C. Well it's done now : And I 
will not begin it again by making any 
refledlions on what you have faid. 
But this I muft needs fay, that Mr. 
Bridge was always held a very preci- 
oHs man , one that hath a deep infight 


the Friendly Debate. i8i 

into the things of God ; much in- 
lightned in the knowledge of the My- 
ftcries of Chrill , and of long expe- 
rience in his ways ; and therefore, I 
confefs, I much wonder at thefe 
things, and am troubled that he 
Ihould write on this fafliion. Yet 
fay what you will, there are thofe 
who will follow and admire him. 

C. Do you think I am fo fimple as 
to doubt of it ? when 1 confider , as 
a French Gentleman once faid , how i 

there are fcarce any kind of Beads 
which hath not heretofore been ado- 
red among Idolaters ; nor any Dif- 
eafes incident either to Body or 
Mind, whereunto Antiquity hath not 
eredVed Temples ; what ihould make 
me wonder at fo fmall a thing as 
this, that divers men have thofe in 
high efteem who are no ways deferv- 
ing. It is no marvel if fimple peo- 
ple hold fots in high reputation, fince 
they have addreflfed their Incenfe to 
Jpes and Crocodiles, There are thofe, 
I have been told, who prefer the 
neighing of an HorfC/ before the 
N } fwcct- 


1 8 2 ^ CominmHon oj 

fvveeteft and moft mufical voice of 
finging men and finging women : and 
others that have thought the fmell of 
Garlick to exceed the beft perfumes , , 
why fliould I think it ftrangethen if 
there be fuch men found as are more 
moved with the knocking of hoops, and 
the vpalioppings of milk and fuch like 
Sounds; than with the ftill voice of 
the cleareft and moft harmonious 
Reafon ? In fhort, I am not forgetful 
of the Proverb, that the Purblind if 
King in the blind mans Country, 

N. C. I lookt when you would 
bring forth a Proverb again. 

G. And is it not fignificant? I 
think it deferves to ftick in your 
mind more than any of yourP^r^- 

N, C. But 1 always thought, what- 
ever you judge of us otherways, that 
you had all allowed us to be the moft 
knowing people in the Land. 

C. Yes ; in your own conceit : But 
otherwife you have difcovered the 
greateft folly. For you would never 
hear Inftrudtion : but alway tickled 


the Friendly Deflate. i g ^ 

your felves with this fancy that you 
had the work of God in hand ; and 
that what you defigned was the very 
mind and counfel of the Lord ; who 
would never let it mifcarry, but bring 
all your thoughts to pafs. Other- 
ways , you need not have been in 
this condition wherein you are. For I 
can tell youwhoforewarn'dyouofit 
in Print five or fix and twenty years 
ago, and bad you take notice of thefe 
words; If it jh all come topa(^ that in 
point of Reformation what formerly was 
proffered by the Soveraign and refufed 
by the Subject , fl^all hereafter be reque- 
fled by the Subject and denied by the So- 
'veraignj we fhall have leifure enough 
to admire Gods jujlice, bemoan our own 
condition , and inflruB our pofierity not 
to outftand good offers ; lefi for want 
of feeing their happinefi, they feel their 
own mifery. But you have no fpare 
moments , it feems , to admire any 
thing but your felves : Nor to be- 
moan any thing but that you do not 
ftill ft in heaveny the place of Judi- 
cature , to which you thought your 
N 4 felves 

184 '^ Continmtion of '| 

felves advanced. And are fo far from 
inftrudling pofterity in any true wif- 
dom , that you would have them 
think the greateft happinefs we can ^j 
next defire is to fee the fiill nation ' 
turnd to war and blood. The old fay- 
ing was , that if things were to he 
done twice , all would he wife ; but 

N, C. Pray leave of your old fay- 
ings, We do not underftand matters 
of Policy and humane Wifdom : but 
in the things of God fure you will 
not deny us to have a fpirit of dif- 
cerning more than other folk. 

C. In the Revelation you mean, 
and the ancient Prophecies : In Wit- 
t7e fling' work, and the work of the Gene- 
nation. In which indeed you have 
difcovered a marvellous skill ; and 
ihown that you can fee as far (you 
will needs have it farther) into a Mil- 
ftone than other men. 

A^C I am fufEciently convinced 
that we know no more of thofe fe- 
crets than you : But there are a great 
many other you knew befide thofe, in 


the Friendly Debate] 185 

which it was ever thought we were 
well feen. 

C. Now perhaps I g;uefs at your 
meaning. You have great skill in 
expounding tlie Works of Provi- 
dence, though not in interpreting 
Prophecies : and can give the reafon of 
thofe misfortunes which befall fome 
particular perfons ; contrary to the 
exprefs fentence of our Saviour, 

N, u Thofe very words of our 
Saviour deter us from pafling ra/h 

C. Do they fo i How came Mr. 
Vicars then profeflfedly to handle this 
Argument ) and not only tell ftories 
of Gods hand upon Malignants ; but 
exprefly affirm, this was a direS t^um^. 
judgement of the Lord for defperatef^^l^^^ 
^J\taligfiancy ; and that, a clear evi- ^l^ff^ 
dence of Gods undoubted indignation^ ?^\n^cod* 
And now how came Mr. John White 
to licenfe this defperate Book ; but 
that you thought you might do any 
thing to promote the caufe, becaufe 
it was the caufe of God ? This makes 


I g 5 A Continuation of 

you ftill compofe Prophecies to amufe 
the credulous ; and fill the Nation 
with the noife of Prodigies to fct the 
timerous into a fit of trembling. 
When your troubled imaginations 
prefent you with a throng of difmall 
thoughts ; then you thunder out 
judgment againft us ; and when any 
unufual thing befalls any of us ; then 
youinftantly cry out; fee the hand 
of God : behold how theLord plagues 
them for our fakes. You know I do 
not lye. There are two or three 
whole Books writ fince the Kings re- 
turn, that will witnefs againft: you, 
if you fliould gainfay me. And fo 
would Mr. Vicars ; who hath nothi ng 
to aflFrighten Neuters withal but fuch 
tales as this ; that a certain Malig- 
nant being filled with terrors on his 
death-bed repented of his crime ; ob- 
tain'd afTurance of Pardon from the 
Lord ; faw Chrift himfelf in a Vifi- 
on , who told him he had a caufe on 
earthy and that the Parliament of Eng- 
land defended /V, and fhortly none of 
thofe wicked Minifters , that had 


the Friendly Debate] 187 

miflcad Gods people, ftiould be left 
among them. 

M C. I renounce all thofe Books ; 
and hate that the caufe ftiould be fer- 
vcd with fuch ftories of Gods judge- 

C. \ wifh it be becaufc Chrift 
taught you better, and not meerly 
becaufe experience hath a little in- 
ftrucfled you, that this weapon may 
be turned againft you , and wound 
your fide as well asotirs. Imyfelf 
could tell you Arrange but trueMif- 
fortunes that have befaln fome of 
your way ; which I will not interpret 
to the juftifying of our caufe or the 
condemning yours. I will only re- 
member how you were wont to cla- 
mor,if any man took notice of unufu- 
al calamities upon any of you; and to 
cry Blafphemy , Blafphtmy : though 
you were fo prone to cry Providence^ 
Providence when the like betided any 
of us. Mr. W. Bridges for inftancc, 
when the converted Gentleman fpoke 
pf fome remarkable ftrokes upon Anfucrro 
three great perfons, whofe names I ^^^tl^p,^?''' 


1 88 A Continuation of 

will not fo much as mention, re- 
plyed in a great pafllon ; Surely, were 
not pr oph arte ne^ and hlajphemy astoyes 
4nd trifles among you, yen durji not 
Jpeak, much lefi print fuch hlajphemies 
Of thefe. Solomon faith , that all 
things fall alike to all, and the fame 
condition {in regard of outward things ) 
is to thejufi as to the wicked : ^s is the 
goodfo is the finner ; and he that fw ear- 
ethy oi he thatfeareth an Oath : there 
is one event to AIL For my part ; I 
embrace this Docflrine with all my 
Soul ; for a greater than Solomon hath 
taught me not to conftrue events ac- 
cording to my own fancy, and as will 
beft promote and juftify my opinion : 
only I wifh, you would not alter your 
mind when the perfons are altered; 
and make one rule for us and another 
for your felves. 

N. c. No. You and I are well 
agreed in this. 

C, Thank you for nothing. When 
you fee that which you took to be a 
Jharpfword prove but a wooden Dagger, 
you throw it away. Such is the great 


the Friendly Debated i2p 

wifdom and knowledge you brag of. 
You firft furioufly lay about you, 
not regardihg whether you hit friend 
or foe ; and when you have hurt both 
alike, then you repent and fay you 
will do fo no more. I pray God you 
be as good as your word. But I much 
fear you will prove like King Saul, 
who when he hc:ird David was in 
Keilahf faid, Now God hath delivered 
him into my hands, for he is fliut in a 
City that hath Gates and Bars. And 
though he faw he was deceived yet 
grew never a whit the wifer ; but 
when his Enemy was in a New ftrait, 
concluded again that God had in- 
trapped him, and would not let him 
cfcape his Vengeance : According 
to the old faying. They that have 
forward defires fall into Dreams, al- 
though they do not deep. 

i\r. C. We have done I aflure you, 
with expounding the meaning of 
Gods Providence : and fliall not pry 
any more into his hidden Counfeb. 

C. Very good. What piece of 
knowledge then have you to brag of 


'ipQ A Continuation of 

more than others ? Unlefs you mean 
fome fecrets which you keep to your 
felves : Special and extraordinary Ex- 
citations y and Chriftian Inj^irations to 
make a Reformation mthout the calling 
of the Supream Magifirate, as Mr. 
Saltmarjh*s words are: An inward 
call from God giving you leave to 
break his Law, or as Mr. Bridge ex- 
preflesit, to make a change, but not 
in a legal way. This I confefs is a 
trick, but no fuch Myftery : a new 
device but no great Secret. There is 
none of us all but can eafily learn it ; 
and that we do not, is not becaufe we 
have not fo much Wit, but becaufe 
. we have more Confcience. 

N,c* No body ever pretended to 
fuch knowledge. 

C. Yes but there did. Mr. Salt- 

mar/h confefles that the early fetting 

forth of private men in the work of 

Reformation is apt to exceed to a 

^^,^^ tumultuous motion : Yet for all that 

(Qnuv.vni- he would not put them fo far behind, 04 

dedicSc'd'to ^^^^ ^^9' y^(?^W Ijy like the Lame and 

jheAiien> the Difeafid at the P(?o/ t/Bethefda, 

IV ait" , 

the Friendly Debate ] tgi 

n ait i fig till a Supreme Power come 
among them- *^No, there are many 
''publick ingagements which they 
*^ are capable of, and which 
^'Providence will often guide them 
«'unto: as in finding Ow^-Tr^^j offa- 
^' cilitatiotj, and advancements for 
^^ the bufinefs ; befide fo7ne other Ar- 
*^ cana, andfecret Preparations. What 
thefe Out-wayes were, into which a 
man might lafh and fo skip over many 
difficulties, he leaves us to guefs. 
You may be fure they arc not the 
Common high road of the King of 
Heaven; as the Reply tells him. His 
jircana alfo he keeps to himfelf, as 
if he was one of Heavens clofe Com- 
mittee, and fo bound to Secrecy. 
But the moft likely perfon to dif- 
clofe thefe Myfteries and reveal the 
Arcana ( if he be not fworn to fecrecy 
too ) is Mr. Bridge ; of whom you 
may enquire. And perhaps he will 
think himfelf much beholden to you 
for teaching him a New Phrafe which 
he hath not yet ufcd; Out-way es of 
Facilitation of the great and hard 


Ip2 A Continuation of 

work now at hand. Thefe Out-wayes 
will do knight- fervice, when they 
come to the bufinefs of reftraining 
the higher powers, and turning the 
ftill people to war and blood. 

N^C. You are refolved I fee to 
lead me out of my way ; and to take 
one occafion or other to divert me 
from the main bufinefs. 

C. We are in our way yet. But I 
was going I confefs to lead you to 
the dancing on the ropesy and then 
indeed you might have taken occafion 
to complain. 

N, C. I think you are out of your 
witts. Can you tell what you was 
going to fay ? 

C. I was thinking with my felf, 
what 0«^1r^^eJ the dancers upon the 
ropes could find ; to whom Mr.Br/W^ 
compares Reformers. They have no 
Out'Wayesi\xxQy but what may indan- 
ger to lead them out of the world. 

MC. Would you would reft a. 
while and take a nap : For I doubt 
you have heated your Brain by this 
long difcourXe, and fo begin to talk 
idlely. C.I 

the Friendly Debate. 193 

» C. I underftand my fclf well 
enough ; and call to mind that I 
fliould indeed have faid, Walking 
{ which is more becoming the gravity 
of Reformers ) not dancing on the 
Rope. For his words are thefe (when 
he is exhorting the Parliament to lay 
the Stones of Reformation with moft 
cxadlnefs ) Tou fee that when a ^^^ sermon ht 
walks upon the Rope, he carrieth a pole Tore the 
in hif hand to [way him, and he looks di- zg.Ncv. 
ligently to hiifeety hecaufeifhefail heli"^^'"^' ^^ 
cannot mend his mifcarriage ; Jnd 1 
Ifayy that in this nork of Reformation if 
I there he the leaft Jlip, it will he a hard 
\ thing to recover it, when once a nation 
\ is fetled in that mifcarriage. Surely 
therefore the work is to he done with the 
moft exaSinefi, 

N.C: Well, and doth he not fay 

C. I /hould indeed have confidered, 
that Out'wayes are only to facilitate 
your getting the work of Reforma- 
tion into your hands : when you are 
about it, then Out-wayes arc dange- 
rous. All muft be done by the RuU 
O and 

ig^ A Conmmtion of 

and by hirje (or in a new phrafe by 
Kopc ) according to the Word. In 
brief; 1 recolledl now that this is 
th^'Out-vraying timej in order to thofc 
better times of Walking upon the Rope. 
But 1 pray what was it that I diverted 
you fronn ? 

N, C. O, now I fee you are come 
to your felf. And will you then ever 
hear me fpeak a Sentence or two 

more 1 thank you for this fmall 

filence. You have fnapt, of late, 
at my words too haftily ; and cut me 
fliort in what I was going to fay ; 
which was plainly this. We obferve 
the Multitude that run in your way 
to be a company of blind Ignorant 
Creatures, that have fcarce a drachm 
of the faving knowledg of Jefus 
Chrift, and the Myfteries of our Re- 
ligion. Nor do they care to know 
thefe things ; but only content them- 
felves to come to Church and fay their 
Prayersy and learn their Catechifm, 
and hear perhaps a Sermon, which 
they prefently forget. Whereas our 
People are very inquifitive after 


(he Friendly Debate. lp| 

knowledge^ and can difcourfe rarely 
of matters of Religion, and repeat 
Sermons; and befides are very care- 
ful to know the pure Gofpel way of 
Worfhipping God. And, truly, 
when I confider things well, I cannot 
but wonder how fottifh many of your 
Conformable creatures are, who ne- 
ver fcruple any thing, and would 
without all doubt conform to the 
grofleft Superftition and Popery ; 
mould it be injoyned. But we are 
very tender, and follicitous as you 
your felves confefs to have pure Ordi- 
nances, and to know the very mind 
and way of God. 

C. I perceive you have little or no^ 
thing more to fay of this matter ; 
therefore I pray let me tell you what 
I think. I cannot deny that many of 
our common People are very Igno- 
rant : Nay, they themfelves are fen- 
fibleofit and will confefs it. But I 
muftadd; that yours are generally 
Ignorant too, only think themfelves 
very knowing. Now which of thefe 
think you are the worfe ; they that 
O 2 are 

1^5 ^ Cominrntion of 

are Ignorant but humble and void of 
fe If- conceit ; or they that are as 
Ignorant , but very Froud and con- 
ceited of their Knowledge ? Nay 
bold and confident of their own skill, 
taking upon them to inftrudl their 
betters , to difpute with our Mini- 
fters, and that as if they were their 
Equals if not Superiours ; without 
any relpedt to their learning or of- 
fice ? For 1 mufl: tell you withall, 
that as to their duty towards God 
and man ; a great number of thofe, 
on whom you beftow only your pit- 
ty, and efteem Ignorant creatures; 
have more underftanding , at leaft 
more confcience than many of thofe 
that figh over them. 

They are more reverent in theirDe- 
votions and addrefles to God ; more 
refpedtful in their behaviour to his 
Minifters ; more obedient to their 
Governors ; more humble and mo- 
deft before all their betters ; and, as 
far as I can fee, more juft and chari- 
table toward all men : And therefore 
are in a better difpofition to learn 


the Friendly Debate, \ p n 

more and incrcafe in knowledge,than 
your prating felKconceitcd people. 
And if there be fuch Kffe(5ts as thefe 
of the little knowledge that you def- 
pife ; and few better fruits than 
talkativenefs , malepert contradidli- 
on of their Elders , cenfuring and 
contemning the ignorance of o- 
thers, from that great high know- 
ledge which you boaft of, I would 
fain know which of thefe you judge 
are like to be moft faving. But of 
thefe things perhaps we may have oc- 
cafion to difcourfe fome other time* 
As for the Reft; I flatly deny that 
your people are more knowing. For 
I of thofe that are the moft earneft for 
pure Ordinances , Gofpel-wor/hip, and 
cry out upon owthiturgy y nay abhor 
it, as 'Superflitioui, Popijh, Idolatrous, 
&CQ, there is not one in an hundred 
that knows what thofe words mean. 
Be but fo true to your fclf and ftudi- 
ous to underftand men aright, as to 
ask the next you meet, and bid them 
deal plainly and freely with you, 
what Popery, Superftition oiWillwor' 
O 3 {hip, 

ip8 A Continmtion of 

Jhip is; and I doubt not you will find 
they are like a company of Piggs run- 
ing after an old Sow (which falls a 
grunting) fqueaking, and making a 
fearful cry they know not for 

A" C You ufe a very homely fimi- 

C, It may pafs well enough in 
common talk, and was the firft that 
came to hand to reprefent the rude 
and fenfelefs noife which the multi- 
tude make with thofe words, only by 

]\F,C, But you compare them to 

C, No. I only compare their cryes 
together, which are bothalike un- 
reafonable. Do but ask for inftance 
what they mean by Popery : and fome 
of thefe Ignorant Zealots will tell 
you, it is to do that which tspradlifed 
in the Church of Rome : Which is no 
better than the voice of a Brute. If 
this be Popery , all our Religion is 
Popery. We muft turn Jews , or 
Turks or Pagans, that we may not 


the Friendly Debate. \99 

be Papills. And yet that will not 
Jo neither ; for this Popery will ftill 
be found among us , that we pray 
and give thanks to God, which are 
acftions common to all the world 
with the Church of Rome. 

JSf. C. You need not have fpent 
one word to confute fuch a grofs con- 
ceit as this. 

C. True. But this fottifh Defini- 
tion of Popery you will be fure to 
meet withall from fome, if you will 
but take the pains to enquire. Others 
it's like will tell you, that it is Pope- 
ry to do any thing after that manner 
that the Papijis do : and then we muft 
never kneel , nor lift up our ' eyes 
or our hands, nor meet together in 
a Church 

J\f.C. Why do youfetcht fuch a 

C. I figh to think of the intoUer- 
able blockiflinefs of thofe people that 
will pretend to know all the Myfte- 
ries of God. For others, who think 
therafelves more wife than the 
rett; will tell you that to ufe any cere- 
O 4 moi 

2 o o A Contimation of 

momes in ufe among them, is certainly 
Popifli. And then we muft ufe none 
at all (and fo make no outward ex- 
prefllon of Religious devotion^ which 
muft be done in fome manner or o- 
ther) or elfe they muft be fuch as 
are Qonfefledly abfurd and ridiculous. 
Nay all civil Ceremonies and Cu- 
ftomes will be forbidden us in time 
by thefe men : at leaft for every thing 
that they hate, this fhall be the 
name^ Popi/h, ^ntichriftian, or Ea- 
hylonifh. For O.G. himfelf I well 
Trueeata= remember could not be carried to his 
ieg^eP-n- grave without their clamours; that 
it V!as a needlefSychargahle, Popijh, fu- 
neral folemnity , becaufe there was 
hldck Velvet , a BeJi of State and a 
Waxen Image. Nay let Monarchy look 
to it felf , for that is Popijh and jin- 
tichriflian too in fuch mens opinion, 
and this Kingdom one of the Ten 
Homes of the Beaft. And down 
{hall my hord Major go alfo ( when 
they are able) as an Image of that Gor 
*vernmentj together with all the pomp 
and foolery which attends him; as their 
words formerly yvere. JN". C I 

the Friendly Debate. 201 

i\Z! C. I hope there are no fuch dan- 
gerous perfons now among us. 

C. It's well if there be not. But 
you will certainly find fome who will 
tell you, that all Ceremonies invented 
by the Pope are Fopijh; and think 
themfelves much wifer than their 
Neighbors, if upon this ground they 
furioufly rage againft our Church. 
Butthe beftofit is, that this is no- 
thing to the purpofe : For none of 
ours were invented by him. The 
Grofs was ufed among Chriftian peo- 
ple long before the name or power of 
the Pope was heard of: and fo was 
kneeling; and white garments, and 
bowing the body in adoration of our 
Blefled Saviour. 

i\r. C, But I have heard fome fay, 
that it is Popijh to do any thin^ of thif 
nature hut what U frefcribed by the 

C. Thisisasfottifhasall the reft. 
For it fuppofes, both that nothing 
may be done in or about the worfliip 
of God, but what we have a Com- 
mand for in Holy Scripture; and 


20 2 A Cmtimation of 

that the Pope and his followers, are 
the only perfons who have done any 
thing not prefcribed there. Elfe 
why Ihould they call it Fopijh, or 
Romijhy more than Fatriarkijh, or 
Greeki/h ? 

Ni c, h not the fuppofal true ? 

C. No. All the ancient Chriftians 
did many things in Divine worfiiip 
appointed by the Scriptures, for 
which they had no particular pre- 
fcription there. Nay, fuch is your 
Ignorance, you your felves do fo too 
and never mind it. For what diredli- 
on is there to make a new prayer 
twice or thrice a day ? and one Prayer 
before the Sermon and another after ? 
to receive the Sacrament of Chrift's 
body and bloud in the morning and 
not after Supper ? to deliver it into 
the hands of every perfon that re- 
ceives it, with prayer for him, or 
Exhortation to him, or both ? 

N.c* Prayftay. You will let no- 
thing at all be Popifh if you be let 
alone: at leaft nothing of this Na- 

• C7. Yes. 

the Friendly Debate. 203 

C. Yes. We are taught by our 
Divines, that, to ordain fuch a mul- 
titude of Ceremonies, as will imploy 
moft of our thoughts and care in 
time of Divine Service how to do 
them aright; deferves that name. Or 
if we make any of them an eflential 
part of Gods worfhip, or give them 
power to obtain pardon for us, or 
work grace in us : or, laftly, if we 
make them Apoftolical and neceffary 
Commands that bind the Confcience 
as the Laws of God do : then call 
them Popiflo and Jntichriftiany or what 

N. C You fay well : and I confefs 
I know a little more than I did. 

C. O that you would help to re- 
duce thofe filly, and many of them I 
hope well-meaning foules, who 
through mere Ignorance and blind 
prejudice are departed from the grave 
andfober way offerving God among 
us, to follow their own vain fancies ; 
and perhaps conceit they arc Witnef- 
fng againft Popery and the wayey ofAn- 
tichnft ; that is, againft they know 
pot what N. C. I 

2 04 ^^ Continuation of 

i\r. C 1 am not come fo far yet ; 
nor hold my felf able to Witne(i a- 
gainft fuch perfons; but this I can 
fay, that all is not Pe?/?^>7 which is fo 

C. Nor Superftition neither. 
Though with the fame doltifh Igno- 
rance, they charge us with that vice 
which they are moft guilty of them- 
felves and do not know it : as appears 
by what i told you at our laft meet- 

N, C. They like not your definiti- 
on of Superftition. 

C. That's becaufe they like no- 
thing that we fay : and becaufe it 
makes them fo plainly guilty of that 
which they condemn. But do they 
like Mr. Cahins definition of it bet- 
ter f 

N.c. What is it? 

C You may have met it's poflible 
with his Inftitutions yiot they have been 
long in the Englifli Tongue . There 
he tells you almoft in the beginning 
of the Book, that as Religion hath its 
name from ^/W/V^^, andisfet as con- 

the Friendly Debate^. 205 

trary to wandring Liberty ; becaufc 
it binds men up,and prcfcribcs bounds 
and limits to them, in which true 
Piety confifts: So Superftition hath 
its name from going beyond all mea- 
fures'y being a humour that will not 
be bounded nor limited ; or as his 
very words are J, that not being content- 
ed with the manner and order frefcrib- 
edy heapeth up together a fuperfluous 
fjumber of vain things. Do you like 
this, I fay, or no? If you do; then 
I will fhew you that as in Prayers, fo 
in other holy Duties, your humour is 
to keep no meafure nor order, but to 
heap up one fuperfluous thing upon 
another : No fct Form can content 
it, no limits or bounds can hold it; 
but it is ftill inventing fomething 
new to pleafe your felves and others ; 
and then you fancy God is pleafed, 
becaufeyouare. I know you have a j 

conceit that you keep your felves 
within the limits of the word, and 
that you dare not for a world ftir be- 
yond the confines which God pre- 
icribes : but this only makes your Ig- 

20 6 -A Contimationof 

norance appear the more grofs, as I 
will plainly fliew you. 

M C. I guefs by what you faid the 
laft time whereabouts you will be ; 
but it will turn us too much out of 
our way to enter into that difcourfe 
at this time. 

C. Well then, He let it alone till 
you give another occafian. And the 
rather, becaufe I would have you go 
as foon as may be and ask what Wtll- 
wor/hip is? That's another word in 
thefe Witnejfes mouths, of as much 
efficacy and as little fenfe as all the 
reft ; for when they are angry, they 
charge one another with it as well as 
us. The Independents were wont to 
fay that it was Will-worfhip to fct up 
the office of Ruling Elders in the 
Church : And I can fhew you one 
that calls the Church Covenant^ re- 
quiring men to give fome figns of grace, 
and call the way oiAdmiffion of Mem- 
bers into Independent Congrega- 
tions, by the very fame Name. And 
therefore I believe you will foon leave 
fuch to wrangle it out ; and go and 


the Friendly Debate J 207 

ask fome others, what they mean to 
bawl fo againft Forms. But I believe 
there is not one of a thoufand can 
give a reafon, why he may not as 
well accufe the whole frame of Na- 
ture as our Liturgy upon this ac- 
count. Efpecially if you tell him 
that there is nothing in Heaven or 
Earth but hath a Form. That when 
we underftand it is by forming fome 
conceptions in our Mind ; and that 
we form our Speech or words to make 
our conceptions underftood by o- 
thers. And therefore even your Pray- 
ers muft be in a Form, or elfe they 
are fenflefs ftuflf ; a meer noife and 
found that no body can underftand. 

N, C. We are only againft fet 

C. And fo many of your Prayers 
have none at all ; but are then thought 
moft heavenly, when they are moft 
confufed ; and to have much of God 
in them when they have nothing of 
Man, For the common word is, 1 
like not Forms, &c. He ftill fticks 
in Forms : he is a dull formal man : 


2o8 -A Continuation of 

which are Phrafes as fet and ftinted 
as our Prayers. They are never out 
of ufe, but repeated an hundred times 
a day. No repetitions they think 
are bad, but only of the fame Pray- 
ers ; nor any other conftant Forms 
unlawful, no not of railing and revil- 
ing, but only thofe of Divine Ser- 
vice. Thcfe they leave to the wick- 
ed, and take the other to themfelves. 
N. c. Pray do not fay fo. 
c. I muft fay more than that. They 
hate a Form of Prayer, but love to 
pray in thefe reviling forms of fpeech. 
Forthey tell God how a Superftitionf 
and Antichrifiian way of worfhip hath 
juftled out his own Inftitutions. That 
men worfhip the Graven Images of 
their own inventions. That Gebaly 
Ammorij and Amalek are rifen up a- 
gainfl: them. And the people are 
taught to go and f^read their anger 
and t hre at nings before the Lord: and 
to tell him that it is an angry timey a 
perfecuting timet a day of great wrath ; 
TruSis,p. abundance of anger and wrath, and ha- 
180.182. ^^^^ ^^^ malice in the hearts of men 


the Friendly Debate. 2 o p 

againji the people of God at thii day : 
or as Mr. JB. his language is in ano- 
ther place, "^ JSovf Foptfl? men /?//x;g ' Fuinef? of 
latd thetr net pnvny for m ; and vre 
may go to Chrifi and fay, Lord pull m 
out of the net that they have laid for t&s^ 
for thou art our ftrength. And, for 
any thing I can fee, much of that 
they call the Fower of Prayer confifls 
in fuch Forms as thefe. 

N.c, Alas! You know not what 
that Power is. 

C, I know it is juft fuch another 
word as Form, which they ufe with- 
out any certain fenfe, as they are 
wont to do the Apoftlel words con- 
cerning a Form of Godlinef^ VPtthout the 
Power of it. This Form ofGodlinefi 
if you will believe fome, is Praying 
hy a fet Form"^ y and then the Pojr^r of^ 
Godlinefi, mufl: be praying without ti/MinT^ 

^"^- Engl, to the 

N,c. It cannot be. ^^^^ ^,f"^ 

C, It is asltellyouo And this is ^"'^'" 

one of the reafons that the world hate 

the Saints ; for that the Saints are a 

praying people: You muft not mif- 

P take : 

2IO "A Contimation of 

seafona. ^^^^ • Forms of Praj/er they can en- 
lll^' P* dure J hut the power of Fray er they can- 
not hear. They are Mr. B. his 

N. c. No indeed, not if it confift 
of fuch railing language as you fpeafc 
of: But neither you nor I, it's like, 
apprehend his meaning. 

C. Do you know what he means 
when he gives this for another reafon 
of the hatred of the world to the 
Saints; that they defiroy their Gods, 
defiroy their Idols. Men of all t-hings 
^ cannot endure to have their Gods defiroy- 
ed : now the people of God do defiroy 
the Gods of the wicked, no wonder there- 
Cb. p«)$7« f0yg ffjaf; ffj^y are fo provok't againfi the 
Saints and people of God. 

N.c. Not I. 

C. Then you are very dull. He 
means our Worfliip, which they are 
wont to rail upon in thofe terms alfo, 
calling it Idolatry, worlhipping the 
Golden cahes, and fetting up new 
Gods : which are fuch rude and beaft- 
ly clamours, that 1 am loth to foul 
my mouth with naming them. They 



the Friendly Debate^. '2 1 1 

are only vile and abominable Phrafes 
which every Ignorant wretch can 
ferve himfelf of, when he lift to re- 
proach his Neighbors. Atfirft the 
JPreshyteriatJS called Conformity to 
the Innovations ( as they were ftiled 
by them ) Wor (hipping the Golden 
Calves, Afterward the Independents ^^w.can^, 
called the Diredlory, the golden calvs ^i^^i! ^' 
of Jerohoamf and affiim'd that this 
order to help in the way of Worfliip 
was a breach of the fecond Command- 
ment. Nay, Mt^ Burton, one of the 
Witnejfes faid, that to make a Law 
about Religion was to fet up the 
Golden Calves, or Nebuchadnezzars 
Image : Or if you will have another 
Phrafe for it, to chufe new Gods and n,^ p^ ^. 
then VPOA irar in the Gates, as an Inde- 
pendent Preacher faid at Chefler when 
they were about to chufe Lay Elders. 
But to be even with them, the Pre s- 
hyterians threw thofe Phrafes back 
again in their faces, and askt the five 
Brethren : Is the Golden Calf of In- 
depency and Democracy come out of it 
felfy without Aarons making it ^. Andg.^^^^^^X 
P 2 in ', 

"2 1 2 ^ Continuation of 

in conclufion one IVeh ( as the fame 
man tells us) called the Scripture 
it felf ; that Golden Calfy and brazen 
Serpent which fet at variance King 
and Parliament,and Kingdom againll 
Kingdom, and faid things would ne- 
ver do well, till the Golden Calf and 
brazen Serpent were beaten in pieces^, 
».p"86.^^^No wonder therefore, if the fame 
man faid, the Scottijh Nation 
was the Babyloni/h Beafi ^Ih. p. Sj. 

N. r. I fhould not have been of- 
fended if you had called fuch men as 
thefe, beafts, and faid they bellowed 
or brayed (or what you pleafe)againft 
your worfliip; Speaking evil ofthofe 
things, which they know not. But you 
are not Ignorant, I hope, that we 
have a more knowing people than 
thcfe, who are truly Religious and 
mind ferious things. 

C What is this to the purpofe. 
I ask for a P/c^-/^Jc and you bring me 
2, Spade, We are not talking of fome 
fele^H: perfons, but of the Multitude, 
which I affirm are grofly Ignorant. 
Yet fince you lead me to it, 1 muft 


the Friendly Debate. 21 j 

tell you there are Serious as well as 
Slight/<7///Vj : And I have reafon to 
think there are divers of thofc who 
are more fober than thofc we now 
fpoke of, and pafs for very knowing 
Chriftians, that have fmall skill in 
any thing but Phrafes. For what 
greater token can there be of Igno- 
rance than either not to underitand 
what a man means, or elfe to flight 
and undervalue what he fayes, if he 
declare the Dodlrine of Chriftianity 
in plain and fimple words ? A^ay to 
complain as if Religion were loft and 
the Gofpel gone, if we leave ofTtheir 
Forms of Speech and beloved Phra- 

N, C. iVbw I fcarce know what 
you mean ? 

C. Do you not remember what a 
noifc and clutter there was when Mr. 
Baxter began to fpeak more intelli- 
gibly about fome yveighty things in 
Chriftianity, than others did ? 

N. C. Yes very well. Some thought 
he taught a new way of Religion, and 
led us from Chrift to the Law again. 

P 5 r.The 

2 1 A 'A ContinmHon oj 

C. The reafon was becaufe he put 
them very much out of the rode of 
their Phrafes. This made them fear 
Chrift would be taken away from ' 
them ; and free Grace be defpifed , 
and a Covenant of works reftored. 
And for the very fame caufe they raife 
fuch a dull now againft many of our 
Minifters. They do not hear them 
talk of getting into Chrifi, and getting 
4n inter e^ in Chrifl ; and that for this 
end they muft get Faith, indigo to the 
promife, and eye Chrifi inthepromife, 
and clofe with him in the promife, and 
lay themfelves flat upon the promife ; 
and go out of themfelves that the pro- 
mife may enter : All which you think 
are very myfterious things, becaufe 
you are Ignorant ; for let all the fenfe 
that is contained in any of thefe 
forms, be delivered in proper plain 
and cafy words, and you defpife it 
a§a thing of naught. Though you 
to.\ko£GoJpel- light, and Gojpel-difco- 
series, and Goj^el-manifefiations , yet 
. there is little or nothing all this 
while to be known or underftood. 


the Friendly Debate^. 2 1 r 

Religion you will have to befuch a 
Myftery, that if a man thinks heun- 
dcrftands it, he ought to conclude 
he is not acquainted with it. It is a 
certain fign a man hath no skill in it, 
if he imagine he knows the plain mean- 
ing of it. It muft be look't upon as a 
Great fomething'. a thing to be itar'd at 
and admired,but no body knows what : 
atleaftyou cannot clearly difcover 
it to us, notwithftanding alj the 
brags we hear of light and difcover ies. 
Hence it is (which is a great ar- 
gument of their Ignorance ) that 
great numbers of your Religious peo- 
ple, have been fo eafily perverted 
and turn'd to the wildeft Sedts ; 
when as the cleared Reafon that our 
men can fpeak will not convince them. 
What multitudes have foon turn'd 
\4nahaptifts , Antinomians , Familifis, 
and Behmenifts ; but how few, and 
with what difficulty, can be brought 
to the Church of England ? This is 
an evident proof to all confidering 
men that they can be made in love 
with any thing but only Reafon : And 
P 4 that 

2 1 6 A Continuation of 

that a Difciple of Jack-pudding fliall 
lead greater troops after him , than 
thcgravefi Dhine, They willfooncr 
liflentoafancy, and are more ready ^ 
to embrace another pack of new 
Phrafes ; than the fobereft fenfe and 
andthewifeft Inftrudtions that can 
be fpoken. 

There is a famous and undeniable 

, inftance of it in the o/Z'^r, and as you 

think, the Purer, England, Was 

it not a wonder that the whole Church 

of Bofton (fome few excepted) 

pould become Converts on afudden to a 

daring woman, and be infedted with 

her damnable Opinions ? And that, 

find thefe ^^ough they were efteemed. Wife, fo- 

very words her and well-grounded Chriftians ; and 

ceedingsof fome ofher opinions alfo had the whole 

comhoTd^ Current of Scripture againft them ? Nay, 

^'J^^^^^^^^; they look't upon her as a Prophet efi 

2.1637- a- ( fuchvvere her fpiritual gifts ) raifed 

gainft Mrs. ^rr^jr-r T / ^ 

iiutchmfon Up of Godforjoms great work now at 

P%?tr' ^^«^. ^^ ^^^ calling of the Jews, 8cc. 

^s>6^' So as /he had more re fort to her for Coun- 

fsl about matters of Conference , and 

clearing up mens Spiritual Eftates, than 


the Friendly Debate] 217 

atjy t!Mini(fer, {Imightfay all the El- 
ders ) in the Country, This they im- 
pute to the craft of this American Je- 
zabel: but I have reafon to think 
the truer caufe was the Ignorance of 
thefe knowing people; who were 
»4^afily cheated by her new Phrafes, 
and foft Dodlrines concerning Free 
Grace, glorious light, and holding forth 
naked Chrift : efpecially with fuch pre- 
tended Myfteries as thefe, that, Chrifi v.Mr.wdds 
ii the Neva Creature ; that we may have nJ^or!^ 
all graces and yet want Chrift. That 55- 38.48- 
there can be no true clofing with Chrift 
in a promife that hath a qualification or 
condition exprejfed; that conditional 
promifes are Legal, and therefore no 
true comfort can he had from them. 
That to aB hy vertue of or in obedience 
to a Command u Legal, that to Evi- 
dence Juftification by SanBification, or 
graces, favours of Rome, that the 
Witnefiofthe Spirit is merely immedi- 
ate, without any refj^eB to the Word, or 
concurrence with it ; that the Seal of the 
Spirit is limited to this immediate Wit- 
nej?, and doth never witnefs to any work 


2 1 8 A Continuation of 

of grace, or any coticlufions of ours. And 
finally , that the tmmediate Revelation 
of my good eflatey without any refpeB 
to the Scriptures y is as clear to me, m ' 
the z'oice of God from heaven to Saint 

N. C. There was Witchcraft fure 
in the bufinefs. 

C. Yes ; of fweet Do5lrines , and 
glorious phrafes : The pleafing mur- 
mur o^myjieries, and fpirituality, of 
immediate Sealing and witnejjing ; of 
Revelations and manifejiations of the 
Spirit. Thefe bewitched the wifeji 
and fobereft and well grounded Chrifli- 
ans (becaufe in truth they were Igno- 
rant , and ftood upon the ground of 
fancy and imagination ) who would 
have ftopt their ears like the deaf Ad- 
der to the charms of fober Reafon, 
fhould a man have charmed never fo 
wifely. Nor could they ever be dif- 
inchanted by all the Arguments and 
perfwafions of all the Miniftcrs in 
that Country^ hut /he kept her ftrength 
i^'V^'^^' and reputation, even among the people 
of God y till the hand of Civil jufiice 


the Friendly Debate] 2 i<^ 

laid hold of her; and then (he hegan 
evidently to decline , and the faithful 
to he freed from her forgeries. So 
wholefomc fometime is alittlefcve- 
rity : And fo much is the force of Ci- 
vil Authority with thefe people, a- 
bout the fliarpeft Arguments of Di- 
vines. For they oppofed the Spirit y 
and their manifeftations and illumina- 
tions, to all their Minifters Reafons ; 
which would do no fervice at the bar 
of the Court of Juftice, where they 
underftood none of this language. 
And now I fpeak of the Manifeftati- 
ons of the Spirit , it is very ftrange 
to me, that you fhould generally ex- 
pert the Holy Ghoft fliould do for 
you what Chrift hath promifed at his 
parting to the twelve Apoftles; 
teach you all things , and guide you into 
all truth. It is another fign of great 
Ignorance in you, and of infincerity 
I doubt, in many of your Minifters ; 
who are afraid to difpoflefs you of 
this conceit, and toinftrudlyou in 
the plain difference betweeii thefe 
times and thofe; but fuffer, if not 

teach , 

^zd A Contimation of 

teach , you , to apply to your felves 
whatfoever our Saviour fpoke to the 
Apoftles alone. A thing which is fo 
palpable , that I cannot but wonder ' 
men (hould fo pervert the Scripture ; 
efpecially when they fee there is no 
fuch thing, but that thofe whom they 
account the people of God , are of 
feveral , nay contrary minds. And 
that all cannot be in the right, and 
yet none they think devoia of the 
Spirit , to teach them all things and 
lead them into all truth. This fure 
makes fo many think every ftrong 
and unufual motion they find within 
them , is the work and operation of 
the Spirit of God. And that every 
place of Scripture that comes on a 
fudden into their mind , is darted 
from Heaven and the immediate 
dictate of the Holy Ghoft : though 
never fo impertinently applyed to 
their prefent occafions. And that 
all the ardent affecftions and tranf- 
ports, and raptures they have in 
prayer or at other feafons, are like- 
wife Infpirations from above; arid 


the Friendly Debate^. 2 2 1 

that now they are filled wkh the Ho- 
ly Ghoft. Which is a grofs and ig- 
norant Gonclufion ^ in my opinion ; 
for want of fuch obvious confidcra- 
tions as thefe; that fuch heats and 
flights are common to them with the 
Heathen Poets , and excellent Ora- 
tors ; and that bad men have had 
them as well as the beft : as I am able 
to fhew you, if you pleafe. 

A" C. Some other time if you 
will ; for we have fpent now a 
great deal in this kind of dif- 

C. Let me tell you notwithftand- 
ing, that this, 1 believe, is one rea- 
fon that your people are filled with 
fomany doubts, jealoufiesand fears 
of being deferted. When they 
have not thefe heates; then they 
think the Spirit is gone ; and how to 
comfort them , it's hard to tell, till 
they return again. And now 1 men- 
tion this, give me leave to tell you it 
is another evidence of great Igno- 
rance, that the minds of well mean- 
ing and honeft-hearted people among 


2 22 -^ Continuation of 

you are full of fo many fcruples, and 
fo uncertain what to refolve on all 
occafions. You may fay perhaps it 
is, btcaufe their confciences are ten- , 
der> and very careful and wary what 
they do : and fo you may fay when 
you fee a Blind man tremble and 
walk foftly, and feel his way at every 
ftep with his ftajff, that he is a very 
"Wary man; when it is not Caution 
but his want of light that makes him 
fo diffident. And indeed how is it 
poflible they fliould have any true 
aflurance in any cafe, when it is fo 
hard, if not impoffible , to be refol- 
ved in the great queftion of all, What 
a man mufi do to hefaved, and attain 
the fatisfaSlion of knowing that he hath 
an interefi in Chrifl ? To this,the moft 
admired Divines reply , that a man 
can have no comfort hut only hy going to 
the promife. O, but faith the poor 
Hooker's Soul (according as it is taught) I dare 
f^m^n^'not fo much as look to the promife, I 
cSp.'so. ^^^^^* helieve it. To this the Anfwer 
is(p. Iij*,) Thatam^knjhallneverhe' 
lieve on thefe terms, if he look to have 


the FrienMy Debate, 223 

faith before he go to the promife. For 
thou muft not have faith and then go to 
the promife ; but, muft firft go to the 
Promife for the power of that faith ; 
from it thou mufi receive power to be- 
lieve. But then how fhall the Soul 
go without Faith ? Will a Promife 
do him any good unlefs he believe it 
to be the very Word of God, on 
which he fhould truft ? This is an 
unanfwerable difficulty, as fj^r as I 
can find Thefe Divines cannot tell 
him how he fhould go to the pro- 
mife fince it is confefs'd he muft go 
by Faith, and if he look to have faith 
before he go to the promife , he will ne- 
ver have it. They only tell him over 
again {p. 1 1 7.) and if it will do, well 
and good : Ihat we muft not bring faith 
to the Promife; but receive faith from it 
to believe. Thus the poor Soul is fent 
to the promife for Faith, and back a- 
gain to faith to lay hold on the Pro- 
mife ; but how to do that who can 
tell? It muft firft go to the promife 
to fetch faith ; and yet how Ihouid it 
go ; if it have no faith ? In this cafe 


2 24 "^ Continmtion of 

how fhould a man chufe but be full of 
fcruples ; and like one that is bcwil- 
dred and loft, not knowing what 
will become of him i , 

N. C. I have read the Book, for it 
ufes to be one of the firft that is 

"^ recommended to us , and as I re- 
member he tells you a little after. 
How a Soul fhould get to the pro- 

C. J thank you for remembring me 
of it. He moves indeed that quefti- 
on/?. 144. But methinks he only 
leads a man into a worfe Labyrinth. 
For thefe are the Rules to he ohferved 
how the Soul may get to the Promife. 
Firft, throw off all power and ability in 
thyfelf. Let the heart lie ftill, till the 
wind and tyde and promife come 9 and 
that win carry thee. And yet the 5^- 
cond Rule ( which immediately fol- 
lows) is this, which contradicfls the 
former : Bring the promife home to thy 
hearty that the promife may bring thy 
heart to it. How is this poflible ? I 
would know how to get to the pro- 
mife;and I am told I muft ly ftill^that 


the Friendly Debated -225 

the promife may come to me.And yet 
at the next breath I am fent to bring 
the promife home to my heart ; 
which fuppofeslmuft go tofetchit. 
What a cafe am I in now? What 
Direcflion can he give me to bring me 
out oFthefe briers? Why ? To anfwcr 
this doubt , the only way is to unfay 
this in the third Rule, which fuppo- 
fes the Promife will come of it felf, 
and that I need not bring it home : 
For it runs in thefe words ; When the. 
•promife is thus come home to thee, and 
thou fee fl thefujficiency and the Authority 
of it ; then aU thou haft to do is this : 
In the ftr earn of that promife, he carried 
home to the promife i p. 1 49. 

N. C. 1 can make no fenfe of it. 

C, Nor I neither. But the thing 
he feems to aim at is this ; that a man 
muft only wait till Chrift aflure him 
that he had made all the promifes to 
him. For thus he explains the bufi- 
nefs. Jacob would not believe that 
Jofeph was alive till he faw the cha- 
riots that were come for him. Thefe 
fcnt from Jofeph to Jacob , brought 
Q Jacob 

2 25 A Continuation of 

Jdcoh to Jofeph, So every believing 
ch^Kiiati ^^^^ ^^ P^^^ ^^^^ feeble ; difabled to go 
drawn to to God and to believe in the Lord Jefus, 
i48.\so.' Therefore he muft look to the Chaiiots of 
Ifrael firfi ( it fiiould be of Jofeph ac- 
cording to the refemblance) and that 
will convey him fo the promife : and 
when the chariots are come , get up into 
them : The Lord Jefus is gone tohea* 
ven and hathfent thefe chariots for thee; 
therefore get thee up , and fay Lord, 
take me up with thee. And fothey 
did : They got up into I know not 
what fiery Chariots, and mounted 
into the Air , and there fancied they 
faw the Lord Jefus immediately re- 
vealing himfelf to them ; and fo car- 
rying them to the promife, theab- 
folute promife. And I verily believe 
thefe Docflrines were they from 
whence the American Jezahel (as- 
they ,caird her ) extracted her Poi- 
fons, and by which the people were 
prepared, todrinkof /^e cup of her 
fornication ; perfwading themfelves, 
that a man is united to Chrifi and jufii- 
fied without Faith; that Faith is not a 

the Friendly Dehatf] 2i^ 

receiving him, hut difcerning he hath 
received him already , that a man is 
united to Chrift only by the work of the 
Spirit upon him, without any aB of his, 
that there is a teftimony of the Spirit 
and a voice unto the Souly meerly im- 
mediate , without any refpeB unto, or 
concurrence with the word* And that 
there are diftinB feafons of the workings 
cf the Jeveral perfons ; fo that a Soul 
may be faid to be fo long under th& 
work of the Father and not the Sons; 
and fo long under the work of the Son, 
and not under the Spirit, jind in con- 
clufion , that a man is not effedlually 
converted till he hath full affurance, 
and that this is given immediately ; 
all the Activity of a believer being only 
to aB to fin. Ail thefe, 1 fay, are the 
plain fenfe (if there be any at all 
in this Book) of what he delivered in 
more obfcure words. 

A^. C Pray go not about to prove 
this. For cny head begins to turn 
round already , merely with the 
fcent of thefe intoxicating ingredi* 

Qz C.U 

2 2% A Cmtimation of 

C. If thefe Do(5lrines had been 
broacht by any of us , you would 
have found out our pidlure long ago 
in the Revelation, and faid, that the' 
Church of New England was Thya- 
tira, and this the Jezabely which cal' 
ledherfelfaprophetefs: and that fuch 
Divines as thefe were the Prophets of 
Baal, the Priefts of Jezahel,anithc£G 
Dodlrines the DoBrines of Devils. 
AH which you might have done with^ 
a greater colour andfhewof reafon, 
than apply thefe names to our 
Priefts. But you are favourable. to 
one another; and wink at fuch Books 
as thefe, provided the Authors be 
Non-conformifts ; and cannot (as you 
ignorantly fpeak) bow to BaaL 

N. C. I am glad there are none 
of thefe Do^rines here in this Eng- 

C. Thofe Books are here, and 
highly admired by fuch found Belie- 
vers, as take all for Gofpel that fome 
men fay ; but can find nothing of 
Chrift among thofe that fpeak fenfe 
and make the Dodlrine of Chrift in- 

the Friendly Debate^. 229 

telligible. Nay, I can find you Dif- 
ciples of fuch Authors as thefe a- 
mong your Preachers; who will 
fome times tell you that Ghrift will do^. ^^^ 
all for you ; and then tell you prefent- fweemefs, 
Jy that fomething muffle done by you,%p^i^' 
Thus one of them introduces theji^g^:!'^ 
Soul complaining, That the Duggs e?/ranM662, 
Divine love are full ; hut I cannot fuck » 
Anfwer, Be of good comfort y Chrifi 
will not only open his Bofom , hut thy 
(CMouth. But I cannot fetch out the 
milk that lies in his Breaft ; I ^fm hut 
weak. Anfwer, Chrift is fweet ; and 
with his finger he will force out the 
Milk of ^JMercy into thy mouth ; if thou 
canft hut open thy mouth. What need 
he have made an if of it, if Chrift 
would open its mouth ? and if he will 
do that and every thing elfe, why 
did he not make an end of the bufi- 
nefs in one word and fay, ^AH the 
jiBivity of Believers is to aSitofin? 
And fo comfort the believing Ewes, 
who are big with young in a fmful fenfe 

and fay 

Q 3 AX We 

230 ^A Cmtinu(Xtion of 

N,C. Wetalkta little while ago 
of fome mens bellowing and braying, 
and now you are going to fall a bleat- 

C. You are very pleafant. I hope 
then it will not offend vou , to let 
you know that I was giving you the 
explication which this man makes of 
thofe words in Ifaiah j\o, 11. I will 
gently lead thofe that are withyoungy 

Pag.102,103 that is, faith he (according to the 
admirable way , now in fafhion , of 
expounding the holy writ) Chrift will 
be very Jsjnd to thofe Saints that ftep 
afide (which is called whoring in Scri- 
pture) and deal gently with thofe 
who are big with young in afinful 
fenfe ; whom,l was going to tell you, 
he comforts thus: O ye finning Ewes, 
who have been big with young , hath not 
he gone after you , and found you, and 

* Pag. 114. laid you upon his fhoulders ^ rejoycing ? 

pfcaff of ^^ ^^y ^^ ^^^^^ ^^fi ^^^^ wandring like 
MT.Hooker, Dinah from thy fathers houfe , and art 

though 7 ' . •; ^ "^ 1 r ' 1 i 

thoucanft bigwtth young y and afraid logo home. 

way to heaven, yet he will find thee,&:c. and lay thy Soul upon his 
fl^culders, i. c. upon the Riches of the frccnefs of Kis Grace, p. 149, 150. 


the Friendly Debate . 231 

But fear not : go and try : he will not 
call you out of doors. Though you come 
with big heliies ( to keep to the Meta- 
phor ) he will deal gently with thee, 
though with young, p. 119. 

N,C. We have followed thefe 
Bwesy or GoateSyOi what you do pleafe 
to call them, too far. 

C. Its true. But at firft /inten- 
ded only to tell you how he defcribes 
a weak believer : who have, as Divines 
fay, the Faith of adherence) they will 
flick to Chrijl as theirs ; huf they want 
a faith of Evidence; they cannot fee. 
themfelves to he his. p. 18. 

NX. Thefe Divines fpeak Non- 
fen fe. 

C. Judgthenin what uncertainty 
the Difciples of thefe Divines live, 
who never tell them plainly what 
Faith is. And what a Arrange blind- 
nefs they labour with, who cannot 
fee ( as they fpeak ) that they are 
Ghrifts ; though they perfwade them- 
felves that he is theirs. Nor do I fee 
what fatisfadlion they are like to re- 
ceive in particular cafes, any more 
Q 4 than 


232 ^ Continuation of 

4:haninthis,thcgreatefl:ofalL Your 
Dodlrine fcems to me to be To ob- 
fcure, that it's hard to come to any 
folid fetlement or peace of mind.^ 
One of your Rules, for inftanccr is 
that we muft have a warrant from the 
word of God for everything we do: 
If there be neither Precept nor Prac- 
tice that we can find there tojuftify 
an adlion we intend, it muft not be 
done . This without doubt hath wo- 
fully infnarled your peoples Gonfci- 
ences, and is one great reafon they 
are fo full of fears and fcruples : They 
have been taught not to rely upon im* 
partial reafon, buttofeek ftill for a 
place of holy Scripture to be their 
Defenceof guidc and Warrant. So l^lr, W.Br ad- 
Lotf^a^y^-^^ ( a famous Divine, whofe name 
^rd. ' know you reverence ) confefled to 
Mr. Gataker ; that he v^as often trou- 
hied tofatUfy fome in their Cafes pro- 
pounded to him, though he gave them 
never fo good reafon for hu Refolutions ; 
hecaufe they would not therewith hefa- 
tisfied, unlef^ he could produce fome 
place in Scripture for every particular. 

'' Thus 

the Friendly Debate. ' 233 

''Thus infinite perplexities, doubts 
<'and fcrupulofitics muft needs arife 
** in mens minds (asMr. //00^'^r well 
'^expreflcs it) and ftops and rubs 
<* without any end be caft into the 
*'courfe of mens lives concerning 
^' their ordinary and civil affairs, if 
•'the light of Reafon ftiall be fup- 
^' prcffed ; and men fhall be con- 
" ftrain'd, burn it never fo clearly, 
''not to proceed by it in ought they 
" are to do, till they have had folemn 
" accefs, firft to the written Word, 
"and fetched light from fome parti- 
"cular fentence in it, for the far- 
"ther confirmation of them therein. 
And thus 1 may add, the Scripture 
came to be bafely wreftcd and bended 
from its proper fenfe and meaning, 
to fcrve their particular occafions. 
And, in their great Ignorance, they 
went away better fatisfied with a fan- 
ciful and impertinent application of 
it to their prefent bufinefs; than if 
|thc foundeft Reafon in the world had 
ibcen offered to them. Only, this 
in time was the mifchief of it, that 


'234 -^ Contimation of 

by this means they found a Way to 
juftify unlawful A(5lions, and fup- 
ported their GoriilJence in thofe 
wayes, againft the nnofl: evident Rca- 
fon. But it's poffible you will not 
regard what / fay, nor Mr. Hooker 
neither, being one of thofe you call 
blind and fuperftitious writers. Let 
me fend you therefore to Mr. Cahin, 
who tells you that if yoa underftand 
not your Liberty about things in 
themfelves indifferent, there will he 
no quiet in your ConfcienceSy no end of 
Superflitions. Many indeed think, 
faith he, th^it we are fond to move di- 
fputation about the free eating of flejh, 
about the free ufe of dayes, and gar- 
inentSyandfuch other fmall trifles, 04 they 
think them : But there ii more weight in 
them than is commonly thought. For 
when Confciences have once cafi them- 
felves into the fnare, they enter into a 
long and cumber fo me way, from whence 
they can afterward find no eafy way ta 
inftit.L.5. get out, '^ /f a nian begin to doubt, 
a|^i6. i^iox inftance, whether he may ufc 
*Minnen Sheets^ Shirts, Handker 

^^ chief 

the Friendly Debate. 235 

'' chiefs and Napkins ; neither will 
^^ he be out of doubt whether he may 
^'ufe thofe of Hemp, and after that 
^' of courfer ftufiT Nay, he will be- 
^^ gin to weigh with himfelf whether 
^'he cannot fup without Napkins, 
^^ and be without Handkerchiefs, li 
'* he think dainty meat to be unlawful, 
'^ at length he fhall not with quiot- 
^^nefs before the Lord eat either 
'^ Brown-bread, or Common meats, 
'^when he remembers that he may 
'^ yet fuftain his body with bafer food. 
*' /f he doubt oipleafant Wine, after- 
'^ward he will not drink even that 
*^ which is dead with peace of Confci- 
" ence ; laft of all he will not be fo 
'* bold to touch fweeter & cleaner wa- 
^' ter than other. Finally,at the length 
*'he will come to this point, to think 
*' it unlawful ( as the common fay- 
** ing is ) to tread upon a ftraw lying 
" a-crofs. For the Queftion is not 
" lirghtandfmall, being no lefs than 
^^than this; whether God will have 
*'us do this or that, whofe Will 
^' ought to guide all our Counfels and 
" Acflions. A^. C / 

! 276 A Comimation of 

N,C^ I know none that are txou* 
bled with fuch idle fcruples as 

c. That may proceed from the 
dulnefs & ftiortnefs of their thoughts, 
which never let them fee into what 
cndlefs Labyrinths their principles 
will lead them, /am fure fuch rules 
as thefe have been fo improv'd by your 
Minifters, that in an ignorant zeal, 
they deny you your lawful Liberties, 
and lay upon you unneceflary Re- 
ftraints. And on the other fide in- 
tice you to hear controverfies and all 
manner of Dodlrines ; faying, that 
no part of the Counfelof Godmuft 
be fuppreded, and conceiving the 
People would be defrauded, if they 
were not admitted to thefe difputa- 
tions. They make no difiference, as 
"wifeand my \^or: A Bacort"^ obfervedlong ago, 

moderate , -^ -arn in ° ^i 

DifcourfeofbetweenMilk and itrong msat, and, 
fe^prin- tofpeak again in his words (which 
feepdb* "^^ come to my mind) whatlfaid 
iiiiied in his before in my own ; they feek to prove 

Kefufcitatio 1.1 r o • 

Ti6s7. every thing by exprcls c^cripture, or 
elfe imagine it is not to be allowed; 


the Friendly Debate] 237 

and then that conftrains them to 
wreft it, and make conceited infe- 
rences and forced allufions. And as 
iov preaching it hath been in a manner 
made ncceflary to fanc5lify every Or- 
dinance; which is another very ig- 
norant Conceit. There are many 
have thought, Qiith he, that it isal- 
moft of the Eflencc of the Sacrament 
of the Lords Supper, to have a Ser- 
mon before it. This hach brought 
Liturgies, and forms of Divine Ser- 
vice into contempt ; and made thofe 
to be defpifed who had not the faculty 
of conftant preaching. As for thofe 
that could not preach at all, they 
have been alwayes reproached by you 
infoftrange a manner, that it hath 
been another occafion of corrupting 
our Religion, and bringing the holy 
Ordinance of God into contempt. 

M C, It*s impoflible, you (hould 
rather fay the quite contrary. 

C. Hear me a little and then judg.. 
Thcfe poor men were in a manner 
conftrain'd by your rud^s clamours, 
to take upon them to expound the 


258 A Continuation of 

word of God, though very unable for 
it; and thereby expofed too early 
even preaching it felf to the laughter 
andfcornof thofethathad fome Wit' 
to difcern, but no goodnefS to pitty 
their Weaknefs. They were loth 
to hear themfelves called Idol-Shep- 
herds, that had Mquths but could 
not fpeak a word from God ; and fo 
rather than endure this reproach they 
entertained the people with their 
Glofles , Paraphrafes and Dif- 
courfes, upon the holy Scripture, 
and called all the Word of the Lord, 
though never fo abfurd and fenflefs. 
Silence I confefs had better becom'd 
them, than ftraining themfelves to 
fpeak what they did not underftand : 
but yet confider how hard it was to 
refift the temptation to open their 
Mouths as oft as they could; where- 
by at once they might both avoid the 
contempt and odious brand of a dumb 
dog ; and alfo get a great reputati- 
on, with the Ignorant multitude, 
of an able, painful Minifter of God's 


th Friendly Debate] 239' 

And as for thofe who had Ibme 
abilities to expound the Scriptures 
and exhort the People^, they were 
called upon with fo much earneftnefs 
to preach the Word in feafon and out of 
feafon, that they knew not at laft 
what to preach. They were forced 
to ftep up into the Pulpit and make a 
noife, when they had little or Nothing 
to fay. By which means the Holy 
Writings were applied according to 
their prefent fancy; and handled in 
a very carelcfs and Superficial man- 
ner. A bold Face and a ready Tongue 
were fain to fupply the place of good 
Reafon and well digefted thoughts. 
Loudnejb (as Dr. Corn. Barges onccFireoftfae 
told you) rras made toferveirjftead^^^^^ 
of matter. For they found if theyP*5»o- . 
were but carneft, the people accoun- 
ted them very zealous preachers, and 
imputed their want of matter to their 
vp'tfdom and defire of edifying : not to 
their want offiudy or ability. And it 
was their cuftome to fay. He preaches 
to the Confcience, He ft and s not upon 
deep learning : He reproves fm boldly ; 


240 A Contimation of 

and if it was other mens?, not theirs, 
fo much the better. For the very 
truth is, the people do not love to 
hear nothing but their duty ; or to' 
hear it frequently repeated. And 
fome taught them in time to call this 
Legal-preaching, Gofpel Sermons 
were then to be contrived; nothing 
but Chrift and free Grace to be prea- 
ched. And becaufe they grew weary 
even of hearing thefe fo often over ; 
there was a neceflity to device Novel- 
ties, or elfe not preach fo many Ser- 
naons. The laft would by no means 
be admitted ; and fo the Scriptures 
were to be fqueazed, new notions in- 
vented, delicate new phrafes coyn'd, 
and indeed a new Religion made to 
pleafe the people. Could it, for in- 
flrance, have entred into the head of 
any man, fromthofe words of Ifaiah 
before mentioned, to talk of Believ- 
ers being big with fin ; and to make 
fuch obfervations as thefe, that it is 
our Glory to he Chrifl's Erres ; and that 
when a man is big with young,and 
cryes O my belly, my belly ; here is a | 


the Friendly Debate. 2 4 I 

point of comfort , that Chrift is 
fweet to fuch perfons ; could a maa 
I fay have ever thought of fuch things 
as thefc, but that he was to ftrain 
the words as far as ever fancy could 
ftretch them ; becaufe he muft have 
foon done with the Text, had he gi- 
ven only the proper fenfe of it; and 
the people have foon done with him 
had he not fought out fome new In- 
ventions ? They were at leaft to be 
courted with fome fweet and indear- 
ing phrafes, and called O Blejfed 
Ewes, O believing Ewes, and O Be- 
lieving Bees , that fuck the honey of pn 
hatred, out of the Wormwood of fin aB- 
ed: and told that Chrift accounts 
their ftammerings fweet: ^leih, 
^!Meih, faith the little one, and the 
mother counts it Mufick. And fo no 
doubt do the people count this pule- 
ing fort of preaching. O he is a 
fweet man fayes one, an affeBionate 
man faith a fccond ; a melting preach- 
er faith a third ; becaufe he layes them 
to the Dugs of Chrifts Love, and bids 
them fuck, or but open their mouths 
R and 

24 2 A Continmtion of 

and cvy Meih; or if they cannot^affureS 
them Chrift will do it for them : not 
confidering all this while, that he 
entertains their fancy with the fulnef^ 
and freenefs of thofe Breafts, and 
leaves their thoughts hanging and ad- 
miring there; merely becaafe he is 
dry and empty himfelf, and hath no- 
thing elfe to fay. 

J\[,C.O Sir, we find that they are 
never drawn dry. 

C. You muft fay fo, who can fan- 
cy you drink up rivers when they give 
you but a fip : and fee with much fa- 
Epift.tothe tisfaiiion fome Sips of Chrift ftr earning 
through a poor creature. And truly, 
as long as there are Streams and 
Beams, your Poets will never want 
rhymes, nor thefe Preachers ftand 
inneedofReafon. For Beaming and 
Streaming will do the bufinefs at any 
time, and make them pafs for extra- 
ordinary men : efpecially if they have 
the confidence to fay, as this man 
doth, that ChriHs j^irit brought that 
Text (Ifaiah 40. 1 1.) to his hand , 
and that his foul hath tailed fome 


the Friendly Debate] 245 

fweetnefs by what Chrift gave in upon 
that fubjc(5l. For fo you muft be- 
lieve, if you will be kind and fweet 
as he is, that the Holy Ghofl hath made 
him overfeer of the flock of God, and 
bid him feed hii Lambs ; and that 
Chrift gave in to him this fenfe of the 
prophets words, that he will be fweeP 
to his believing Ewes, when they ars 
hig with Sin. And indeed it is crafti- 
ly done to intitle Chrift to their Do- 
tages ; for were it not for that, there 
arefcarce any fo ftupid that would 
not defpife them. But confider then 
how modeft thefe men are ; who had 
rather Chrift and his blefled fpirit 
fhould bear the reproach of being Au- 
thors of fuch abfurd Gloffes and ig- 
norant Comments ; than honeftly ac- 
knowledge that they are the fruit of 
their own Fancies, which would foon 
be drained, if they did not fupply 
them with fuch Inventions. 

A^. C. There's no danger of that; 
for they are way full men, as you have 
often heard me fay. 

C\ So they are: very/J///ofimper- * 
R 2 tinenC 

2AA ^ Continuation of 

tinent allegations of the holy Scrip- 
ture, of tautologies, abfurd refem- 
blances, childifli fancies, and falfe 
reafonings : and yet withal \ciyfulf 
of Confidence and felf-Conceit , 
which , to fay the truth , you are 
all/«//of; a very few excepted. 

i\7; C. You are full of wrath. 

C. That's a part of your pride and 
felf-conceit , to call truth by the 
name of wrath , paflion and bitter- 
nefs. And to pretend withall that 
whofoever fpeaks any thing againft 
you , is an enemy of God , unac- 
quainted with Religion , a formal, 
fuperftitious , or moral man. But 
take it as you will, and think of me 
asyoupleafe, I fay that, in myob- 
fervation , there is fcarce a dram of 
that vertue called ^Modefty to be 
found, / will not fay in one, but in a 
whole Country of you. You are ge- 
nerally full of your felves , highly 
conceited of your own underftand- 
ing ; impatient of contradicftion, in J 
fo mnch that my Lord Bacon tells us 
he knew fome of your way, who 


the Friendly Debate] 214 y 

thought it a tempting of God to hear or 
redd what might he [aid again ft them. 
By which you may fee this is no new 
humour, but runs in the very fpirit of 
the party : who cannot think that any 
underftand fo much as themfelves of 
the things of God ; and imagine the 
fpirit guides them which muft not 
fubmit to reafon ; and that no man 
hath any true Goodnefs in him that is 
not one of them. Upon which ac- 
count they ever fuppofed all men of 
whom they had any good thoughts, 
to be of their way in their hearts ; 
nay, all others of any parts to be a- 
gainft them, merely for the love of 
the World. This / will evidently 
prove to have been a long time , the 
humor , even of your eminent Pro- 
feflbrs , if it fhall be contradicfled. 
And it is the caufe I believe that they 
complain fo heavily if any man re- 
prove any of them : as if there could 
never be found even in good men, 
fomething worthy of Reproof, or as 
if that which we reprove in them, 
were an undoubted part of their 
R 3 good- 

2^6 'A Cmtimation of 

goodnefs. But they will take the li. 
berty not only to reprove , but to rail 
upon us, as much as they pleafe : and 
fay when they have done:, as Mr. S^//.' 
fepiftic De= ^^^*"y^ did to the AflTembly, I hope you 
his'e'wk"!. 7?'/// pardon me , if zeal for the truth 
gainftMr. make me fee another s faults fooner than 
my own. Nay, the ordinary people 
among you have not the leaft refpecil 
to any of ourMiniftersunderftand- 
ingand skilly not to fay his Office 
and Calling : but, as 1 told you be- 
fore, will talk and difpute with him, 
find after that reprove and cenfure 
him as if they were not only his/<?/- 
lows but his judges. Whereas the 
very fame men would take it extrem- 
lyill, Ihouldany Minifter take up- 
on him to controle or but direcSl them 
in matters of their 'trade , to which 
they have ferved an Apprenticefhip : 
though far more eafie to underftand 
in a fhort time than the holy Scrip- 
tures in many years. Proud fawcy 
Spirits ! who undertake to teach 
jhofe of whom they fliould learn : 
and flight , nay fit in judgement on 


the Friendly Debatf. 2 4 7 

thofe , to whom they ought to give 
great honour, and to whofc judgment 
in many cafes they fhould quietly 

It was long fince the zealous com- Fire of the 
plaint of a holy man (faith C.Burges) \f^;^^'^^ 
that men could no fooner get up their 68. 
names in the world , and be able rea- 
dily and confidently to mufterup a 
few places of holy Scripture nothing 
to the purpofe, but they thought 
themfelves fufBcient to encounter 
Mofes himfelfj, fetting upon him as 
furioufly as Dathan and jihiram ever 
did. Happy were this Age , had it 
none of them. To whom it is in 
vain to fay any thing; but to them 
whom moderation hath yet fome hand 
over, 1 fay this of the fame ancient 
Father; Their contumacy, I befeech 
you, let us flie ; their madnefs let us 
abhorr ; left we perifli with them in 
the fame vengeance. 

N,C, Iconfefslknowfomeofthis 

fpirit; but you grant there are o- 

thers of more Moderation , that are 

eminent for their Piety and all other 

R 4 things, 

248 A Continuation of 

things , who do not forget that they 
are men. 

C. Our eares are almoft deafned 
fometimes ( as Mr. Kathband one' 
whom you valued , faith in another 
cafe) with thepraifeoffomeof thefe 
mens eminent Learning, Piety, Sinceri- 
ty , Zeal, &c. '' And truly I believe 
'^ feveral of them are learned men, 
^' and fuch as are modeft, meek> hum- 
^^ ble and peaceable , I judge them 
^^ fincere. But there are great num- 
^^bers joyn'dwith them, who would 
'^ be thought the moft eminent becaufe 
^^ moft atflive in that way ; who un- 
<^ der colour of zeal of Gods glory, 
^^ hatred of fin , dcfire of fer ving God 
*^in fincerity; are thruftby an evil 
^'Spirit that hath deceived them, in- 
" to pride, felf love, raflinefs, unnatu- 
^' ral affedtion,uncharitable furmifes, 
^' and moft unchriftian judgement of 
^^ their Brethren. 

N,C. Methinks you judge, and 
that very hardly, of others. 

C. See your partiality ; and that 
fond Afifedlion you have to your 


the Friendly Dehau. 24P 

felves, and one to another. Thofe 
are none of my words, but were 
long ago fpoken by feveral Minifters 
of yours (who had fome fcruples in- 
deed about Ceremonies , yet never 
left our Church) againft thofe that 
feparated from it then , as you do 
fiorr. Is not this to rejedl that very 
thing , when it comes out of our 
mouths , which you readily receive 
when you hear it from one of your 
own ? 

But as to the bufincfs of Judging 
others , fince you mention it and it is 
fo much talkt of, I openly declare, 
that I judge no man in things indiffe- 
rent ; as you are wont to do , and as 
the Jews judged the Gentiles , and 
St.Paul himfelf But it is not indif- 
ferent whether a man be humble, mo- 
deft and peaceable or no. Such I 
maycenfure: who, forinftance, are 
difobedient to Authority and defpife 
their Betters and Governors : And it 
is your great fault to cenfure even 
thofe that are obedient, and in 
things which they profefs to believe 


2^0 A Continuation of 

to be indiflercnt. Is it like good 
Chriltians think you, to call thofe 
Superfiitiom, Wil-wor/hippers, Compli- 
ces cf the Beaft , who declare they do 
not believe any Ceremony they ufe, to 
be any part of Divine Worjhip , nor 
neceffary circumftances of it ; but 
that they may be altered by Authori- 
ty, to which they are bound to yield 
Obedience : and in the mean time to 
cry out on thofe who reprove you for 
down-right Oppofition to Authority, 
for clamour, evil fpeaking, apparent 
pride and fuch like things ; which 
the Laws of Chrift judge and con- 
demn, tell us arc manifefi fruits of 
the flejh'^ You cannot think fo fure 
unlefs your underftandings be fo 
ftrangely blinded by the love of your 
felves , that the cjearefl: Truth can- 
not enter, if it fliew you your errors. 
Indeed if a man merely omits to do 
thofe things that are commanded; 
but is not unruly, crofs, clamorous, 
an oppofer of Laws, a maker of par- 
ties , and feparate Congregations, 
nor in any other behaviour unchrifti- 


the Friendly Debate] 2 1 f 

nn ; I think I ought to leave him to 
be judged by Chriji , who fearches the 
fecrets oF mens hearts, and who on- 
ly can tell whether it be weakncfs of 
undcrftanding , Intereft , Humour, 
Love of reputation and fuch like 
Reafons that keep him from obeying 
Laws ; or pure Confciencc and in- 
vincible Ignorance. But if he be 
turbulent , a railer or reviler y a 
(lighter of humane Laws and a Blaf- 
phemer of Dignities ; if he be one 
that makes Divijlons and Offences^ i, e. 
Schifmes in the Church ; not I, but 
the Apoftle judges fuch a man, not 
to be afervant of the Lord lefm Chri/i, 
hut of hU own belly. Which that he 
may provide for , he Qivcsgood words, 
flatters the rich and the great, -and is. 
very compliant with all that he hopes 
to win to be his followers and friends: 
and he ufes alfo fnr fpeecbes (or as 
Mr. Tyndals tranflation hath it, fweet 
preaching ) he praifes and commends 
thofethat follow him, he fuppofes 
them to be the people of God, and 
pretious ones; he extenuates their 


252 A Contimation of 

faults and magnifies their good 
deeds ; and fo deceives the heart of 
the Innocents (as Mr. Tyndal reads it) 
or, of the fimple people. Read the 
place in Rom. 16. 16,17. where the 
Apoftle not merely bids , but be- 
feeches them to mark or ohferve fuch 
rnenasthefe; and tells you for what 
end ; that they might avoid them. But 
how is that poflible , unlefs vfc judge 
that they are unfit perfons for our 
company; and that walk not accor- 
ding to the rule of the Gofpel ? 

jlV. C, But you (hould judge then 
only for your felf ; and labor to hide 
and conceal the faults or errors of 
your Brethren , For Love covers a 
multitude of Sins, 

C. ^^ Love is to cover what fins 
^' may be covered ; but fome cannot 
^*be hid they are fo publickly com- 
^' mitted ; and Others may not be 
^^ hid though they could ; becaufe 
^* the concealment of them will do 
^^ hurt to themfelves and others ; to 
^^ the publick and the private wealth, 
f * In which cafe, it were both ao:ainft: 


the Friendly Debate. 253 

** Piety , Charity and Prudence to 
^^ conceal them. And to that pafs 
^^ are things now come among us,that 
<^in both refpedlsl think your cour- 
"fes are not to be covered. Fir fly 
^' they cannot ; at ieaft in great part, 
•'being long fince made publick to 
^'the world , and daily are more 
^' and more , by your own printing, 
*^ preaching , and private inftilling 
^^thern into others. Secondly, they 
*' may not if they could, feeing by 
*' forbearance all this while, they 
*^ have fretted like a Gangrene into 
'^ the Bowels both of City and Coun- 
** try : and I fear we have kept their 
'* Counfels fo long , that many of 
*^ them are already paft cure , and we 
'^almoft remedilefs in our rents ten- Narration 
'^ding unto Ruin. Nay, do not^^^^ 
frown, as if I were too ftiarp andfe-S^"'^^""^ 
vere : they are not my words , but i^d by 
fome of your own againftthe Inde-'"'^'^'^ ^^' 
pendant Brethren y and may with as 
much, or more, juftice be now ap- 
plied to you all. 


j'j. A Continuation of 

MC. I think there are other cour- 
fes more dangerous than thofe, that 
ought to be lookt after. Prophane- 
tJefi, I mean, is the great thing which 
both you and we ought to fetour 
felves againft ; and that, Imufttell 
you, abounds more among you than 
any where elfe. 

C. I cannot tell 

N. C. What cannot you tell ? 
whether pYophanenefs fhould be op- 
pofed by both with the greateft Vi- 
gour ? 

C Be not fo fierce. Firft, I can-* 
not tell whether Prophanenefs a- 
bound more now , than it did in the 
days when you reigned. I told You 
the laft time what the JJfemhly told 
the Parliament of the fudden growth 
of wickednefs fince they began to fit. 
And I am fure it was not checktin 
the following years; but the feafon- 
able exhortation of the greateft part 
of the London ^dinifters complained 
no longer ago than 11660. of the 
great Wickednefs broken loofe a- 
mong us ; (which it feems was chain- 

the Friendly Debate . 2 55 

cd and bound up while the Bifliops 
governed ) and, as a great inftance 
of it , tell us in the conclulion of 
that fad lamentation, thot fome (as nc 
are credibly inform d) are grown to that 
height of wickednef^ as to worship the 
Devil himfelf, p. lo. And then, fe- 
condly , I cannot tell whether the 
Wickednefs that hath lb much a- 
bounded beyond that in Elder dayes, 
be not in great part to be imputed to 
your felves : For all the time you de- 
claimed againft the Ignorance and 
blindnefs of the people, you caft ma- 
ny fearful ftuajbling-blocks before 
them (as an honeft5'^jfi/^-m^;/told 
you fome years agone:) while they 
could not but fee or hear your fcorn- 
ful cenfuring and condemning 0- 
thers ; greedy panting after and gaf- Moumfoi 
ping at the Riches, Honors, and Pre-^he^"' 
ferments of this world; fraudulent IJ'-'?^?^^'! 
Circumventing and over-reaching that <:oun= 
your Neighbours; cruel revenge upon ^' ' ' ^ 
thofe you judged your Enemies when 
you had power ; bitter quarrelling 
and contending one againft another: 


2^6 ^ Contimatim of 

and yet notwithftanding all thofe 
fins , which might have juftly caufed 
' you to lye intheduft, they fawyou 
lifted up r boafting of the glorious 
times you had made , proudly appro- 
priating to your felves the honour- 
able name of Chriftians, Saints and 
the godly Party. Nay, the people 
were not fo blind but they could fee 
how you meafured the Saint {hip of 
your felves and others, rather by 
fome private opinions or fmall pun- 
ctilio's of worfhip; than by the 
great things of Faith , righteoufnefs 
and mercy. For they found fome 
men whofe profefilon of Chriftianity 
was attended with thefe , accounted 
no better than civil men ; while o- 
thers were cryed up for Saints and 
Godly , who were much deficient in 
them. Befidcs, your Minifters took 
no care to Catechife the youth in the 
Country ; nay , brought that Ordi- 
nance into fuch Contempt , that to 
this very day a man is not thought to 
do his Duty , who fpends ihe after- 
noons of the Lords day , in that in- 


the Friendly Debate.^ 257 

ftru5lion. They heard nothing but 
Orations in the Pulpit morning and 
evening, and thofe (God knows) very 
forry ones in moft places. As for 
the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, a 
great many honeft hearted people 
were frighted from it. You made 
fuch lofty Railes (as he obferves) a- 
bout the Table , that few or none of 
the poor people couldcom.eatit: as 
if you thought it a matter of great 
piety to confine the Members of 
Chrifts Body to a little room, and 
caufe his Death and Paflion to be 
known and remcmbred only by a few : 
as if it were an honour to Chrift and 
an advantage to the world, that his 
name and memorial fhould perifh 
from the hearts and mouths of a great 
part of the people profefling his 
Name, and ingaged in Covenant to 
him. Nay, in many places, they ne- 
ver faw it adminiftred to any at all, 
for many years : Your Minifters chu- 
fing rather to deprive themfelves and 
others, of whom they had d: good 
opinion of this Heavenly Banquet ; 
S than 

gtg A Conmmtion of 

than afford it to many well-meaning, 
though no talking people. And fo 
while they complained of their living 
in known fins ; they themfelves lived' 
many years in a notorious omiflion of 
this Duty. Sometimes indeed they 
would invite men to this feaft ; but 
then by their preaching they hindred 
and difcourag'd the mofl: if not all in 
a Country congregation ; as if they 
were too forward to acknowledge the 
benefits of Chrift , and keep up his 
remembrance. In fliort, many of 
them accounted the people no better 
than Heathens , and upon that fcore 
would not baptize their children ; 
and thereby indeavoured to make 
them fo, and quite thruft them out 
of the flock of Chrifl;. O that you 
would all fearch your hearts (as that 
honeft man faid) to find out the true 
root of this Spirit of Separation, and 
obferve narrowly whether under o- 
ther fpecious pretences or with fomc 
pious intentions , there were not a 
bitter root of pride and haughtineft. 
caufing you to affedt Angularity, and 


th Friendly Dehatil 2 '59 

defire to appear alone to the view of 
men ; thinking it below your worth 
to be found in Communion with 
thofe , whom in opinion you have 
laid fo much below your felves. 

But let that be as it will ; Thirdly, 
I cannot readily tell which are worfe, 
the Fuhlicans and Harlots 9 or the 
Scribes and Pharifees. This I know, 
that there have a long time been a 
great many of the laft, who juftified 
themfelves and lookt upon all others 
as abominable. Dr. Buries ^ I remem- *J'S^^^^^ 

. A , Sana:, un- 

bcr tells us with a great conhdence, 

that thofe who kept heretofore fuch a f^ce. ^ ^'^' 

frantick coyle about ceremonies y and 

thought they never took their level right, 

hut when at every bolt they {hot , they 

firuck a Ei/hops cap fheire off his head; 

were more fant aft ical, Ignorant) Proud, 

fe If- willed , negligent and deceitful in 

their particular callings , than many 

whom they defpifed , and condemn d to 

hell for Carnal men : of any obferving 

Eye might eafily difcern. Now what to 

think of thefe men in compare with 

the other, let honeft <iMartin Bucer 

S z tell 

2 5 A conttmmton oj 

tell you, who was one of the firfl: Re- 
formers, and whofe name I know you 
cannot but reverence as well as I, on 
many accounts. * 

N. C. How do you know what 
Martin Bucer faith ? 

C. I underftand a little Latin; 

and befides I have fecn the latter part 

of his Comments on the Prophet Ze- 

phaniah tranflated into our tongue ; 

where he tells us, towards the Gon- 

clufion,*^that there were fome among 

*^ them under a pernicious Miftake ; 

•' abhorring only thck^rofi things, to 

" wear brave clothes , to fare deliti- 

*^ oufly, to drink and fwill, to whore, 

*^ to heap up riches carefully , to be 

"Ufurers, and others of the like 

'^ kind ; but in the mean time, Arro- 

^^gance, faftidious difdain of their 

^^ Brethren, to languifli about frivo- 

'^lousQueftions, factions, reproach 

^ ^ of Gods Word, flanders againft his 

^'Minifters, eafily to believe lies, 

'<and being raflily believed (or per- 

^^ haps by an evil fufpition fuggefted) 

l^to fpreadand fcatter them abroad ; 



the Friendly Debate. 26 i 

^/ ihefe and fuch like things, faith he, 
^*pafs with them fometimes for Vir- 
*' tues. Nay, they think themfelves 
^' thrice Holy y while they walkabout 
^'with a ftoical Supercilioufnefs, 
'^bended browes and fad Counte- 
'^ nance ; while they wear mean 
** clothes, and rattle all mortals in 
*^ the ear not fo much with grave 
^' Words as with claps of Thunder ; 
•^crying out, that aUis^ naught and 
^^ wicked. That which I have experi- 
^' ence of, as he goes on, and have 
*^ good aflurance of its truth by cer- 
'* tain obfervation, why fhould not 
*• 1 teftify to the Glory of Chrift and 
^'the Admonition of the Brethren ? 
'^ Of thofe who abound fo much in 
"accufing the vices of others, whom 
^^ every Garment that is a little more 
^^neat, every little Entertainment 
'^ that is more plentiful, every Word 
*'that is more merry and pleafant 
*^ doth much oflFend, that are alwayes 
"complaining concerning the want 
*^ of Excommunication ; I have found 
'* very few ( that I may not fay none) 
S 3 "who 

26 z A Continuation of 

^' who do not labour with remarkabld 
/^ conceit of themfelves, infufferable 
'^contempt of their Brethren, incrc-/ 
^' dible impatience of any neglecfl of 
'' them, and fometime with other 
'^ more grievous Evils. Bejides that 
*^they are in a manner alw ay addiSled 
'^ to new and ftrange Opinions ; which 
*^ tend only to Schifms and nothing to 
^* Edification, Novo Herefy is a fruit 
^' oftheflejhy -and doth far more mifchief 
^^ than all Drinkings^ Whoreings, or 
'' Adulteries. On the other fide among 
^' thofe perfons whom they deteft 
^* no lefs than Heathens becaufe of a 
^* life more remifs, and the riches of 
^^ the World, and a certain fplendor 
^^ or bravery ; I have found very many 
'^ who as they acknowledg themfelves 
*' obnoxious to fin, fo they think of 
" themfelves moft humhly, and of their 
^* Neighbours moft Benignely : they 
^^ are very candid in their Thoughts 
<^and equal in their Judgments con- 
^^ cerning others ; alwayes account- 
♦^ ing themfelves the worft, t^c And 
f' when the Crofs that they have de- 

^' ferved 

the Friendly Debate. 2 5} 

'^ferved lyes upon them; nothing is 
^' more patient than they ; none ha- 
'*^ zard themfelves more for the Lord. 
" Thefe things I have certain know- 
*^ ledge of, and why may 1 not declare 
^' them to his Glory ? And I call him 
*^to witnefs, that in fpeaking this, 
^^ I mean nothing lefs than to fet any 
"brandah amore fevere mortificati- 
*' on of the flefli, and renouncing of 
*' worldly things ; or to incourage 
'^ thofe that live remifly> or indulge 
'* any defire of the flefh : No, I pray 
*^ the Lord that he would give me and 
^^all his chofen grace, to ufe ftill 
" more fpareingly, the things of the 
''body our felves^ that we may im- 
*'part them more liberally to the 
''Poor. May we have grace alfo fo 
" to obferve our Tongues that even 
*' a little Idle word do not efcape us, 
'' but all that is ours may be direcfted 
'^ to Profit and Edification. I have 
" written thefe things and annexed 
"them to my Comments (God 
''knows) for no other caufcj, but 
^' that I might admonifh the Brethren 
S 4 " who 


2^4 A Contimatim of 

"^^ who have the grace to live frugally 
^^and feverely, and to be free from 
'^ outward Offences ; firfi of all, dili- 
^' gently to watch the Devil left he 
'^ infeft them with inward ones : and 
'^ while he permits them to avoid 
" thofe external Vanities and Delica- 
^^ cies, he brings them in love withiin* 
" ward and far more mifchievou^ Evils; 
'^ that is to pleafe themfelves, and to 
^"^ delight themfelves in the condemn- 
*^ing of others; and then to fport 
*^ themfelves, and play the wantons 
^^ idlely in novelty of opinions ; from 
'^ whence break forth openly, grudg- 
*^ ings and Hatreds ; then Fadtions, 
*'' Se£is and unfpeakable Scandals in 
t^^the Church. That which follows 
I fliall omit, as not being fo much to 
my prefent purpofe ( though other- 
wayes worthy of your notice ) which 
was to fliew what opinion wife and 
holy men have had of that Spirit, 
which now rules in you: and fo con- 
clude what we are to direct our zeal 
moft againft and affault with the 
greateft vehemence. For your part ; 


the Friendly Debate. 26$ 

it is manifcfl: you oppofe Conformity 
with might and main; and ftudy by 
all means to keep ui^ the Separation: 
as for Us; it is your defirc we would 
fct our felves wholly againft Fro- 
phanerte(^, and let you alone. But 
we cannot thus abandon our felves, 
and throw oflTall care what becomes 
of our Church. We hate prophane- 
nefs and are refolvcd to oppofe it ; 
but we hate Pride and felf conceit 
and fa(flion and Separation, and we 
are refolved to beat down thefe too. 
Andlmufttcll you wichal, that our 
Blcfled Saviour was more frequent 
and more fcvere in his reproofs of the 
Scribes and Pharifees ( how like you 
and thofe of Mr. Bucers time are to 
them, let the impartial judg ) than 
he was of the Publicans and Sinners, 
Vwnd whatfoever you think now, here- 
tofore I am fure your Minifters grant- 
eVthus much, that the Devil gains ^.^^^^^-^^ 
more by SchifmSy than by coldnef? in agreed up' 
Religion ; and that he had rather draw Mmiii^^"^ 
men from their fir jl love to a fiery ^«^ n'i'e'li bv^Mr. 
indifcreet Zeal, than to lukewarmnef^^^^^^^^y 

^266 A Continuation of 

and indifference. For firfl, hereby 
h^ ft aggers many others who were well 
fetled, and makes them childrea, 
again in underftanding, and turns 
tnem about with every wind of Do- 
<5lrine ; and Secondly he deprives thofc 
men of the happy means of recovery f 
which they might have eafily enjoyed, 
had they remained in the feUowjhip of 
the Church. And would to God you 
would once more fadly confider, 
whether thofe many revolts that fince 
the firft reparation have been made 
from your gathered Congregations, to 
monftrous Opinions and filthy Pra- 
c5lices, have not beena juft Punifli- 
ment of you, for your too high Va- 
luation of your felves and uncharita- 
ble Separation from us. What con- 
ftrucftion you make of fuch things we 
know not (they are the words of the 
oS^^St ^^^^fi ^^^ I mentioned before ) but 
'to us that are more Ignorant it feems 
very ftrange, that whereas you fiHied 
with fo great a Mafh that fcarce one 
of a hundred was taken by you and' 
admitted into your Churches ; out 


the Friendly Debate] 26 j 

of this hundredth part of yours, more 
fhould be found revolting to abfurd, 
foolifli, nay pernitious Opinions,than 
of the Ninety nine parts you left 
behind. It ought in my poor opini- 
on to put you into a juft fufpition, 
and ferious re- examination of that 
way, from which there is fo eafy 
a tranfition to fo many dread- 
ful delufions ; and through which fo 
many have already pafled over unto 
the enemy. 

N. c. Let thofe examine who are 
moft concern'd in it. My mind is 
full of fomethingelfe. 

C. What's that r^ 

N, C. You have repeated fo often 
the Schifm ( as you call it ) or Sepa- 
ration that is made from your Church; 
that I perceive it is the great thing 
that (ticks in your ftomack, and 
which angers and frets you fo much. 
And indeed Mr. Bridge told us it 
would do fo, in one of thofe Sermons 
you mention fo oft. 7he Saints j«^ scaf. Trutia 
people of God, faith he, they vrithdraw^^^^^^' 
from the men of the World , and dofepa- 


2<58 A Continmtion of ' 

rate from them. Now when we with- 
draw from men and from their worfjip, 
we condemn their Worjhip ; and the men^ 
of the world do not love to condemn. To 
fepar ate from them and from their Wor- 
Jhipy thif they cannot bear. The Saints 
do feparate from them, and therefore 
there iffucha deal of anger and wrath 
in their hearts againji them, 

C. Alas ! Good man ; Doth he 
think we have fuch an opinion of him 
and his Saints, as they have of them- 
fehes? He flatters himfelf too 
much. It is one thing to imitate the 
Saints, and another thing to counter- 
feit them. He fliall never perfwade 
me that quick-filver is better thani 
gold ; and that turbulent and affrigh- 
ted imagination can be a furer guide 
cither in the choice or exercife of our 
Religion, than a calm Reafon, and 
a fixed, wellrefolved Judgment. Let 
him call himfelf and his party Saints 
a thoufand times, or as oft as he 
breathes ; it (hall never move me at 
all, nor fliall I think the worfe, but 
the better, ofmyfelffor being none 


the Friendly Debate. 269, 

of them.Let him pride himfclf in new 
devices , of a different worfliip for 
the Saints and the reft of the world ; 
I am very well contented, if they will 
but mthdravp themfehes far enough 
from us, and let us be out of the hear- 
ing of their Gibberifli. Let him lead 
them to the Indies if he pleafe , and 
hcfeparated from us by the wide Oce- 
an ; it will be a great fatisfadlion to 
enjoy our worfliip quietly * to our 
felves. Or rather let 

h._^_ t. * Yet you muft not hope for this; 

im retire into niS For thevmuftftay to power forth 

C*.}r^Cf-*- on<4 i-K*inlr no the Vials, which next to the Sepa- 

CilOlet, anatmnKnO rating from us, is the thing that 

company in the world provokes the Antichriftian party. 

*^ ^ 1 r ' 1 • "^^^ "^^y ^^^ ^^ torment the men 

pure enough tor nim ofthcworld,andmaltethcmgnalli 

L J.1 ' Ti 1 J their teeth, and bite their tonr"^- 

but his Books, and no for pain, as he teUs you a 

Books but his own;his ^^^^' p^' '^^' 
precifenefs, I aflure him , fliall never 
trouble me at all And I fuppofe I may 
pafs my word for our whole Church, 
that they will not complain for 
want of his company ; nor think it 
any difgrace to our Worfliip that 
fuch do not like it, or perhaps abhor 
it ; nor any fliame to themfelves that 
they will have no Communion with 


270 -^ Continuation of 

us. There were alwayes people of 
a morofe and fowr humour whom no- 
thing can pleafe ; no not what they 
do themfelves, when once it pleafes' 
others too. They muft be of a con- 
trary Opinion to the whole race of 
mankind : and hate fome things, on- 
ly becaufe others love them. And 
therefore if they not only withdraw 
themfelves from us, but alfoy7/g^^ us 
and fet us at naught ; the concern is 
notfo great, as to require my care. 
Let them call Us the World , and if 
they pleafe , the Dogs that are with- 
out the Holy City; I value it no more 
than the barkings of an angry Cur: 
Though in his vain conceit of himfelf 
and party , he imagines we lay their 
difrefpedl to us mightily to heart.For 
this you know is another caufe which 
he is pleafed to affign , why the men 
of the world are angry with them. 
Jhe Saints and people of God do not re- 
gard the men cfthe World; and the men 
of the World they think fo. Now for 
high ana lofty men to be flighted and not 
regarded y this makes them angry. For 


the Friendly Debate. 271 

which he cites Dan. 3 . and then re- 
peats it. they cannot hear thif, that 
they (honld not he regarded, high and 
great meny that they (hould not he re* 
garded: and therefore no wonder there 
u fuch a great deal ofverath and anger 
in their hearts againfi the people of God, 
But let him repeat it as oft as he will ; 
tell him from me, that it moves us 
not at ail to want their regard; for 
we do not think our felves honoured 
by their Efteem and RefpecSl. It is 
rather a reproach than an honour to 
be commended and praifed by fuch 
mouths, as value a compofed counte- 
nance and a fet of phrafes; more than 
the moft compofed and regular life, 
and the beft fenfe in the world. Let 
them flight us therefore fo much, if 
they lift, as not to move their hat, or 
give us the time of the day, or turn 
their face another way when they 
chance to meet us; it is all one; we 
(hall have never the worfe opinion of 
our felves or of our VVorfliip. We 
do not think them fo able to judge of 
true worth, or to difcern between 


2 "7 2 A Contimation of 

true and falfe, good and bad, as to 
concern our felves about their Opi- 
nion : thefe being almoft the fame 
thing nowadays, and though all un- 
dertake to judg, yet few know the 
dijference. We have fomething eife' 
alfo to fupport us than their favoura 
ble opinion of us ; and that is,a finc::re 
care with unbiafled affecflions to 
fearch after the Will of God ; and a 
readinefs to receive and do it, when- 
foever we know it. Let him bring us 
Reafonsin ftead of confident aflferti- 
ons, and fee if we will not ftudioufly 
confider them ; and if they be good 
yield to them. He fpoke admirably 
who faid, that our Reafon ought to yield 
obedience to nothing butRe^fon: and 
that Juthonty U a yoke which none but 
God hath a right to impofe upon our 
judgments. If God fay it, that's rea- 
fon enough : but we fhall never be 
perfwaded that they only hear or un- 
derftand what he fayes. Let them 
talk as if they had not only flept in 
our Saviours Bofom ( as 4 Gentleman 
1 remember fometime faid ) but even 


the Friendly Debate] 273 

watch't in his heart and foul, and as 
ifthere were none of his intentions 
hid from their knowledg: they will 
never gain the greater credit with us, 
unlefs we fee more than words and 
confidence. No though they fhould 
notonly contemn and fcorn us as al- 
together ignorant in the things of 
God, but pronounce Anathema's and 
Curfes againft us as the limbs of the 
Apocalyptick Beafl:; Heaven we 
know laughs them to fcorn, and we 
fliall fmile at their ridiculous pre- 
fumption. The Wolves we know will 
never be reconciled with the Shep- 
herds flock ; and when we have done 
all that we can, there will be an en- 
vious and Malitious Generation, who 
like the rats and other imperfecft 
Creatures (which it is poffible were 
in the Ark it felf ) will ftill be gnaw- 
ing the reputation, even of thebefi: 
Church in the World. Every thing 
under Heaven is abufed ; yea, and 
what Heaven it felf hath fpoken is not 
fafefrom Injury and Violence; and 
therefore why ftiould we look to have 
T a 


274 A Continmtion of 

a general refpedt, or be caft down 
or angry eitlier at the negledl of thefe 
men, of, if they pleafe, their Con-» 
tempt and Reproach ? 

J\[, C. You fay you are not angry, 
but methinks you are in a great 

c. Not at their flighting us I aflure 

N.c, What then. 

c, I told you, that I profefled a 
juft indignation at fome things ; and 
more particularly to fee the Scrip- 
ture fo wretchedly abufed and wreft- 
ed, even this very cafe, to juftify 
their Separation and withdrawing from 

N. C You mean I believe that to 
the Corinthians, cited by Mr. Bridge. 
Come out from among them, and he ye 
feparatCy touch no unclean thinz* 2. Cor. 

c. Yes. 

K. C. And doth it not require us 
to have no Communion with the 
wicked, of which your Congregati- 
ons we think are full ? 

C But 

the Friendly Debate . '2 -y 5 

C But do you think then we are 
all Pagans and Infidels ; /. e. fuch 
people as do not fo much as ac- 
knowledge Jefus Chrift to be the 
Lord ? 

N.a God forbid. 

C Then you apply thofe words 
impertinently to us ( as you do the 
reft of the Scriptures ) who are no- 
thing like thofe,from whom the Apo- 
ftle would have the Corinthians with- 
draw. It is an exceeding great (hame 
that you have been fo long turning o- 
ver the Bible,and talking of the word 
of God ; and yet not underftand fo 
plain a thing as this. You feem to me 
to be like thofe the Apoftle fpeaks of 
in another Epiftle; who are ever ledrn- 
ing but never come to the knowledge of 
the Tr«^/?.Nay,you are like little chil- 
dren that tear and rend their Book 
into little fcraps ; or like thofe im- 
perfe(5l creatures, 1 fpoke of before ; 
you nibble at a bit of the Scripture, 
and inftantly ftart away, and leave 
all the reft. Could you not have caft 
your eye back but to the i^,verfe^ 
T 2 There 

275 ^ Contimation of 

There you might have feen who they 
are the Apoftle fpeaks of. Be ye not 
unequally yoked together with Infidels, > 
faith he, i. e. either do not marry an 
infidel , or do not joyn with them in 
any of their rites belonging to their 
Idolatrous fervice. Be not at their 
Idol feafts; the thing headmoniflit 
them of in the former Epiftle , and 
touches upon here again (as fome 
think) left theyfliould not be cauti- 
ous enough in this particular. For 
the Apoftle having told them an Idol 
vpoi nothing y they might holdthefe 
feftival entertainments to be indiflfe- 
rent things, and fo when their kins- 
folk, or friends invited them, not de- 
ny that Civility, to accompany them 
to their Temples. Stay, faies the 
Apoftle, confider what you do. What 
fellowfhip hath righteoufnefs with un- 
tight eoufnefsy &:c. thefe things are as 
contrary as Light and Darknefs, you 
cannot partake of the Table of the 
Lord and the Table of Devils too; 
as he told them in his firft letter. And 
then he renews his Exhortation, 



the tnendly Debate. ^77 

Come out from among^ them , and he ye 
feparate (from thofe Idolatrous Infi- 
dels) touch no unclean thing ; meddle 
* not with their Idolatrous fervices> 
nor any of their wicked wayes. You 
would be more aflurcd that this is the 
fenfe, if you would but turn to the 
place from whence thefe words are 
cited (as the Margin diredls you) II. where the Prophet bids 
not the more holy fort of Jews to fe- 
parate from their prophane Bre- 
thren; but the whole Body of the 
lews to flye out of Babylon ; as any 
body may fee that reads the place. 
And therefore they cannot be urged 
without a notorious force to prove 
fuch a reparation as you are in, of 
one part of a fociety profeffing be- 
lief in Chrift, and baptized into his 
name, and renouncing all Idols what- 
foever; from the other. AndfoMr. 
Geree I remember a difcreet Presby- 
terian conlefled, and explained the J^^^^jJf^jJ]' ' 
words to the fame purpofe that I do. Bernard ' 
And fo did a noted perfon long before denTes^pi 
him ^ and far more largely, in his^^?'^^' 
T 3 dif- 

2*^8 ACmtinmHonoj 

difpute againft the Brownifts. For I 
muft tell you, thofe olA Separatiffls 
condemned by all honeft Non-con- 
formifls in former times , fought to 
juftiiie their Schifm from the Church 
of Chrift from this very place : and 
the very truth is , fo did the ancient 
Donatifts. Who, to make a fair 
fhewfor their fearful Schifm, cryed 
out juft as you do now , Come out 
from among them , touch no unclean 
thing : Depart J depart , feparate your 
fehes. tlave no feOowjhtp with the, 
unfruitful works of darknefs. Be not 
partaken of other mens fins : What 
hath the Chaff to do with the Wheat ? 
which are the very words now Igno- 
yantly imployed by your party a- 
gainft us; with as little knowledge 
pf their fenfe and meaning , as of 
their being the rotten tooles where- 
with thofe Schifmaticks fought to 
overthrow the whole Church. 

N. C. How come you by more 
knowledge than other folk in this 
matter? Can you tell what the ifo- 
natifis faid ? 


the Friendly Debate . 279 

C Yes, without reading St AuftitJ. 
For I can believe an old Englilh Di- 
vine who lived above half an Age ^^^^ 

« fince, that acquainted me with this; fard piam 
and fhewed withall that thofe proud S^fX'" 
people had the fame anfwer to this f'e alifL* 
place from that Father, which 1 have natifts.pa9. 
now given you. Thefc words, faith ^"* '^^°* 
he, They underftand carndlly, have cut 
themfelves into fo many divifions, into 
little hits; in this Africa alone. For 
they do not under (land that no man is 
joyned with Infidels , hut he that corn- 
mitts the fins of Pagans , or elfe doth 

\ favour thofe that do fuch things y &c. 

[ jind who hath fellowship with darkne^, 
hut he that hy the darknefiof his con^ 
fenty forfaking Chrift , doth follow Be- 
lial ? who puts his part with Infidels, 

I but he which is partaker of that In- 
fidelity f For that way he ceafeth to 
he the temple of God ; neither o- 
ther ways doth he joyn himfelf to 

N. C. I am convinced of this. But 

; may we not gather by proportion, 

th^t we ought to feparate from the 

T 4 wicked 

26 o A Contimatim of 

wicked fort of Ghriftians though it 
be not here intended ? 

C. Hear what Mr. J, Geree an- 

Kcfolutldn ^^^^^ ^^ ^^is* '^^' ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^ 

c^zo.Cdfci inferred is y that we fhould avoid need- 
i644" i^j^ familiarity with the cricked , and 
allfociety in fin : to keep them from the 
Sacrament if ws can ; But if it he not 
incur Power 'y not to omit the Sacra- 
ment, hecaufe they partake of it. In 
which he followed the refolution of 
St. jfuftin who immediately after the 
words before mentioned, adds thefe 
B.2.againfias my Author tells me ; jind they 
c^!T£ which are the Temples of the living 
God, and in the midfi of a crooked and 
perverfe generation appear a^ lights in 
the worlds having the word of life ; no- 
thing doth infedi them , which they tol- 
ler ate for Unities fake', nor are they 
pent up in any fir ait, hecaufe God doth 
dweli in them and walk in them. And 
they depart in the mean time out of the 
evil, and are feparate , at leafl , in 
heart ; Hefi happily while they would, 
feparate hy thefedition of Schifm, they 
jhould rather be fpiritually feparated 
/. , ; ; . ■ . from 

the Friendly Debate^. 281 

from the good, than corporally from the 
had. This old Divine alfo admo- 
nifhes us very well out of the fame 
Father , that when the multitude of 
the Aflemblics of the Church are 
free from that crime to which Ex- 
communication is denounced, it is 
very healthful ; and becaufe fo ma- 
ny avoid him he will be ftricken with 
fear and healed through fhame. But 
when the fame ficknefs hath taken 
hold of very many , there remains 
nothing elfe to the good , but forrow 
and bewailing ; that fo they may cf- 
cape that deftrudlion which is like to 
come on the multitude of the wic- 
ked. And in very deed faith he, if 
the contagion of finning hath invaded 
the multitude, the fevere mercy of 
Divine difcipline is neceflary : but 
the counfell or enterprifes of repara- 
tion are both vain and pernicious, yea 
Jacrilegtous ; becaufe then they be- 
' come both impious and proud ; and 
give more trouble to the good which 

I are weak, than they correcft the ftur- 
dy ones who are evil. And conclud- 

282 A Continuation of 

ing this point , he gives this Advice; 
Let a man therefore with Mercy cor- 
rect what he can ; and that which he 
cannot , let him bear with patience : 
and with love let him mourn and la- 
ment, untill He from above do either 
redrefs and amend ; or elfe diflerre 
untill the harveft to root out the 
tares, and to winnow out the chafF. 
And here he alledges the example of 
St. Cyprian that holy Martyr, who 
had been Bilhop of Carthage y and 
defcribes the multitude as full of 
grofs fins , yea many of his fellow 
Bifhops as fpotted with very foul 
crimes ; but yei: he communicated 
with them (though not in their fins 
M'hich he evermore reprehended, yet) 
in the Sacraments and holy Worfliip 
of God. Nay, he fliews that our Sa- 
viour himfelf did not feparate in Bo- 
dy from thcFharifees and Saduces and 
multitude of common people, but 
met with them at the Temple : And it 
is alfo plain that the jifrican Church 
which in St. jiuftins dayes befides 
rheir evil manners , held fome other 


the Friendly Debate] 283 

blemiflics which cannot be charged 
on ours ; for by his own complaint 
it appears , there were fuch a multi- 
tude of Kites and Ceremonies then 
in ufe, that they were a very great 
burden, and the Church was oppref- 
fed and groaned under them. And 
therefore 1 think your precifenefs in 
feparating from us is more like the 
difdainful and proud Religion of the 
Scribes and Pharifees ; than the hum- 
ble and charitable purity of our blef- 
fed Saviour. 

AT C If you take thefe old Fathers 
for your Guides they will lead you I 
know not whither. • They held ma- 
ny Arrange Opinions. 

C I fuppofe you would feparate 
from them too, if they were alive. 
But what think you of Mr, Cahin i 
He is a more modern Father, and you 
may thiqk perhaps more inlight- 
ned ; will you ftand to his Judge- 
ment ? 

N,C. Why.'* What fays he? 

C. He tells you , that *^ whercfo- 
l^^eyertheGofpel is purely preached 

284 A CmtinuMion of 

'^ and the Sacraments adminiftred ac- 
^t.^Book... cording to the inftitution of Chrift, 
sea. 9. ^^ there is the Church of God. And 
'' if the very multitude hath and ho- 
*'nours thefe; it deferves without 
*' doubt to be efteemed and judged a 
** Church; becaufe it is certain that 
*^ thefe things are not without fruit. 
" And if you look a little further to 
sca.;ic. *' the next Sedlion he repeats it again 
^^ with much earneftnefs. There ap- 
^^ pears (in fuch a multitude as he 
^^ mentioned before ) neither a deceit- 
ful nor doubtful face of a Church : of 
which no man may either defpife the 
Authority , or^efufe the Admoniti- 
ons, or refifi the Counfels, or mock at 
*^ the CorifeBions ; much le(i depart 
^^from it , break infunder the Unity 
*^ of it , and go unpunijhed* For the 
^^ Lord fo highly efteems the Com- 
'^munion of the Church that he 
" counts him for a Traiterous Run- 
'' away , and forfaken of Religion , 
" whofoever Ihall ftubbornly eftrange 
** himfelf from any Chriftian fellow- 
^' fhip : So that it be fuch a one as 


the Friendly Debate^. 285 

*' hath a true Miniftry oFthe word 
*' and Sacraments. He fo commends 
*' the Churches Authority, that when 
*' it is violated, he judges his own di- 
^* miniflied . Do you hear this ? 

Kc. Yes. But - 

C " To prevent all your excepti- 

" ons, look further into the i z. Sedl:. 

*^ and there he will tell you that the 

'^ fellowlhip of fuch a Church is never 

'^ to be caft of, though it [warm full of 

^' many faults. Yea, and there may 

<^ be fome faultinefs crept into it in 

'' the Adminiftration either of Do- 

" dlrine or of the Sacraments, yet it 

ought not to eftrange us from the 

** Communion of it. For ail the Ar- 

^' tides be not one fort : and there- 

i^^ fore we ought not rafhlyfor every 

1^^ light diffcntion forfake the Church, 

^Cyc. But then, in the next he tells 

^you, that in bearing with the im- 

perfedlions of life, our gentle ten- 

^demcfs ought to go much further- 

^ And in the next but one, that it is 

one thing tofhun the private company 

9fa wicked man ; and another for ha- 

'' tred 

StSt 16. 

285 A Continuation of 

" ttedoffuehtoforfdks the Communion 
of the whole Church : which is to be 
more rigorous than St. Paul. And 
although thii temptation to for fake the 
Church may by an indifcreet zeal of 
righteoufnef?, enter into the thought of 
a good man ; yet we jhall find that too 
much precifenej? grows rather out of 
Pride, difdainfulnefi, andfalfe Opini- 
on of holinef^; than of true holineJS 
and true zeal thereof. They that are 
bolder than others, and as it were the 
Standart'hearers to make any depart- 
ing from the Church, for the moft 
part do it upon no other caufe, but 
their defpifing of all men, to boaft 
themfelves to be better than others. 
But I think I had? befl: let the reft a- 
lone; left you fay 1 rail upon godli- 
nefs (of which this fepajration is now 
grown a great note) though in Mr. 
Calvins words. 

N. C, We are pot to mind what 
men fay ? nor to have their perfons 
in admiration. 

C. No? Not what your own Mi- 
nifters fay ? fare their words are an* 


the Friendly Debate. 287 

other Gofpel with you, or elfe how 
come you fo to mifunderlland the 

N.C. They are good men, and fo 
we value what they fay. 

C ric fliew you then that they have 
faidthe very fame in behalf of our 
Form of Divine Service, that I did 
the laft time we talkt together : and 
that they condemn this withdrawing^ 
from us, which Mr. £r/V^tf makes the 

N.c^ Pray let it alone: It will be 
too long. 

C. Let me tell you thus much: 
that they told their Brethren oi New- 
England heretofore, that ;/ we deny 
communion with fuch a Church a^ ours, 
there hath heenno Church ^ ^ ^ >,• n. • .^ 

Letter of manv Minjftcrs mold 

thefe 1400. years with England requefling the judg. 

/ • / r^j 'a- • I ^ mentot their Brethren in New 

Whtch a kihnptan mtght tngl. concerning 9. Pofitions 

lar^fuUy joyn. Nay, that ^]^Z^^^^ 
if fuch fcrufla as are ^^^^^\^l;^:Z^^' '^ 
now in your heads may 
take place, it will be unlawful to hold 
communion with any Society under Hea- 
then : and that as for making an Idol of 


288 ^ Contimation of 

the Common Prayer (which by the way 
was a phrafe they themfclves made ufe 
of afterward) it might be as well faid> 
that they made an Idol of their conceiv- 
ed Prayers, And therefore what evil 
fpirit is it that now poflefles fo many 
of your Preshyterian Minifters, and 
hath driven them, as if they were out 
of their wits, from our Church, and 
their own Principles, and from all 
the Churches of Chrift, that now are 
or ever were ? 

JM.'C. Pray do not fay fo. 

c. They have granted me that for 
1400. years there never was any 
Church, with which we might hold 
Communion if not with ours: and I 
will prove that there hath been none 
forthefe 1668. years. 

i\r. C. You are ftrangely bold. 

C. No bolder than ^r. Calvin ; 
who will give you good fatisfacftion, 
if you read the Chapter to which I 
referred you, that the Church of the 
JeTves in our Saviours time, and the 
Apoftolical Churches afterward, tol- 
krated greater Vices in manner, and 


the Friendly Debate. 289 

fouler Errors in Dodtrine, than were 
in any Church from which in his days 
a feparation was made. And I will 
fhew you diftincflly, either now or 
when you will require it, that thofe 
Churches planted and watred by the 
Apoftles, had thofe Corruptions in 
Do^rine , WorJInp, Marnier s , Difci- 
pline, and Gouernment , which can- 
not be pretended to be in ours : and 
yet there was no feparation of fome 
Members from the reft : Nay : the 
Apoftles notwithftanding all thefe, 
fpeak very well in general of all, bc- 
caufe of the graces of fome. They call 
them all Beliezers & Saints ; and none 
knew then any other Men of the World, 
and Unbelievers ; but Pagans^ fuch 
as did not acknowledge Jefm to be 
the Lord. 

N, C. i ariWoth to give you fo great 
a trouble. But I pray anfwcr me one 
Scripture which feeras to be againft 
this ; when it faith. The ^Apofiles fe- 
parated the Difciples. Adl. I9. 9. 

C. Admirably argued ! The Apo- 
ftles feparated the Difciples from 
U thofe 

290 A Continuation of 

thofc that were not Difciples, and 
therefore we may feparate Difciples 
from Difciples. 

N. c. How fay you ? 

c. The Apoftles I fay were fent to 
preach the Gofpel and make Difci- 
ples to Chrift, baptizing them into 
his Name who believed on him. Thofe 
who would make profejGfion of Chrift 
they gathered into a new Church 
from among the Jews and Fagans who 
difown'd him. And accordingly here 
in this City having won fome to be- 
lieve, and made them Chrifts Difci- 
ples, they feparated them from the 
reft of the Jevpifh Synagogue, who blaf- 
phemed Chrift and would acknow- 
ledge no other Religion but that of 
^^ofes ; to be a diftindl fociety by 
themfelves, and no longer Members 
of the unbelieving Synagogue, From 
whence you would infer, that one 
Chriftian is to be feparated from ano- 
ther Chriftian, and believers gather- 
ed from believers ; if one part appear 
to us Pious, and the other Vicious : 
which is juft as if the Apoftles out of 


the Friendly D eh Ate, 2p I 

thofc few Difciplcs feparated frgm 
the Jews, had made another Icfler 
Church, feparated from the reft of 
the Difciples, 

J\f,c\ Ifeemy Error plainly: And 
fhall remember hereafter if I can, 
V not merely to nibble at the Scripture^ 
as you called it, but take it altoge- 
ther. But Mr. Bridge affrights us 
horribly with one place, which pro- 
phefies he fayes of the greatcft repa- 
ration in the later daycs, that ever 
was. It is in the Kevelationy where the 
Spirit cryes. Come out of her my peo' 
pie, that you be not partaker of herjins^ 
there fhall he the greatefl feparation, 
and that provokes the Antichrifiian par- 
ty\ as his words are, p. 179. of the 
Book before mention'd. 

C. 1 remember them very well,' 
R^i^. 18.4. But do you ftill take Mr. 
Bridge for a Prophet ? Have I not 
fliown you what a rare Seer he is in 
the Revelation ? 

N. C. I have heard others befide 

him mention this place. Mr. Cafe 

I remember gave us this rqafon to 

U 2 hope 

,2 9 2 A Contimation of 

hope that God would be gracious to 
Swuri. England, and thatBahylon fliould ftiort- 
mentto ly fall ; hccdufe he had begun withfuch 
God,p. 6s» a difiinSi and audible voice from Hea- 
ven, to call his people out of Babylon, 
faying, Come out of her my people, &c. 
1 8. Rev. 4. Her Idolatrous bowings, 
cringings. Altars, Crojfes, and cur fed 
Ceremonies, falfe Wor(hip, falfc Do* 

C. You need fay no more ; I have 
it perfedlly in mind as well as you. 
And you were wont I know, in thofe 
dayes to believe that they knew the 
defigns of Heaven, as well as if they 
had been Counfellors of State 
in that kingdom : and conceived the 
News they told you of what was com- 
ing, as fure and certain, as if they 
had layn in the Bofom of St. John 
as he did in our Saviours. But I 
hope by this time you are convinced 
they were only drowfy dreamers, that 
knew nothing of his Mind : and fee 
that they are but like a poor Moufe 
which having but one hple, is cafily 
caught. Baby Ion, Babylon was all 


the Friendly Debate] 2pj 

they had to fay then, and thither they 
run now. Thefe are the Magical 
foundsy whereby they would aftonifli 
you : the My^ical words whereby they 
pracftife all their Sorceries upon you. 
Stop but your ears againft thefe, and 
you are free from their Enchant- 
ments ; for they can never prove that 
the Church of England is this Babylon 
from whence his people are calFd, or 
that (he hath taken fo much as one fip, 
or kifs'd the Cup of her Fornications. 

JSf. C. 1 never ask them, indeed, to 
prove this. 

C. No, You took it very lovingly 
upon their word : and ran after thofe 
whom you fancied and were inamour- 
ed of, with an implicit Faith ; as if 
you had tafted too deep of the Cup 
your felves. If you did but hear them 
fay, Myflery, Myftery, (the very word 
you know in the forehead of the 
whore) prefently you bowed to them, 
and thought you were under the 
teachings of an infallible Spirit. And 
you remember I fuppofe very well, 
that thofe two and all the reft of the 
U 3 Mini- 

2P4 ^ Continuation of 

Minivers that were wont to preach 
before the Parliament, and in the 
greateft Congregations, generally 
chofe their texts out of the Uld-Tefia- 
ment, feldom out of the New, unlefs 
it were the Revelation, 

N.C. What of that?' 

C. By which means they furnifh- 
ed themfelves in an abundant meafure 
with fuch Comparifons, as did them 
admirable fervice. They could eafily 
contrive it fo, that they might feem 
fuc!^ a feledl: number as the Jewesy 
the peculiar people of God; and we 
like the q^gyptiarjs, and Babylonians y 
or what other accurfed Nation they 
pleafed. And fo applying all thofe 
places which fpoke of them., to us 
and our times ; they excited in you 
the fame hatred againfl: us that was 
in the Jews againfl: thofe Nations ; 
and made you think it as neceflary to 
feparate from us, as for the Jews to 
come out oi Babylon, Nay by a won- 
derful Art, or prodigious Inchant- 
ment rather ( which argues your 
great dulnefs ) they firfl: raifed your 


the Friendly Debate, 2P5 

fancies, put words into your mouths, 
and taught you to expetfl all that 
they had a mind fhould fhortly come 
to pafs ; and then they made the ex- 
pcdlation they had wrought in you 
an argument that it fhould come to 
pafs. Thus I remember one of your 
Divines incouraged the Parliament 
to expecft the overthrow of Bahylorty 
hecaufey [aid he, the General talk 
throughout the Hou/hold among the Do- idnfori. ser- 
mefikks iiy that Chrifi their King ^^aTFgT 
coming to take pojfeffion of his Throne>^'^'^^^'^^' 
7 his they not only whi/per, hut (peak 
puhlickly. No^v you know before Kings 
go to a place, their purpofe if firji known 
among the Domeflick Servants, and 
talk't of within doors firfi, and then a- 
broad and Harbingers prepare the way. 
This hath been the news throughout the 
hou/hold, and Harbingers have beenfent 
abroad : It is dfign that he is not far 0Jf; 
it will not be long before he come. 

N. C, Cannot you repeat a fen- 
tence without laughing ? 

C.If you had not been very grofs you 

Vv ould have either laught or been angry 

il 4 ae 

3p5 A Continuation oj 

at thofe that did not fee or would not 
take notice of the cheat. How came 
you, I befeech you, to whifper this 
and afterward talk it abroad , that 
Chrift was coming to fit upon his 
Throne ? Had you any relation of it ? 
Did you that are his Domefltcks hear 
Chrift the King fay fo ? Or were 
you not told fo by thefe pretended 
Favourites of his, and believed them 
without asking whence they had the 
News ? 

N, C, Undoubtedly we never 
thought of it, till we heard it preach't 
and proclaimed by them. 

C And then when your heads were 
fiU'd with this conceit, and they had 
fet your tongues agoing, and made 
this the General talk ; they ask't you 
(ifyou wereapttodefpond ) why do 
you doubt of it ? Be of good chear ; 
without queftion he is not far ofF; for 
otherwife you would never have talk't 
fo much of his coming. Which was 
no more in plain Bn^lifh than this ; 
you would never have believed us, if 
1% were not fo, were not thefe rare 


the Friendly Debate] 297 

devices to fupport the peoples confi- 
dence ? And were not the people 
very blind that could not difcern 
this foul Impofture i Never talk now 
of the Sottiflinefs of the multitude 
in the Romijh Church ; for they are 
cofened by neater Legerdemain 
than this. Which is juft as if I 
iliould entertain a Child a long time 
with hopes of Plums and fine toyes 
coming from fome Fair : and when 
he began to doubt of it, fliould tell 
him; thou haft talk't of them fo long ' 
my Child, that without queftion 
they will be here by and by ; how is it 
poffible that thou fhouldeft be in 
fuch expedlation of them if they 
were not at hand? 

i\r. C. No more words : You have 
faid enough to make a Child under- , 
ftand the delufion. 

C' And yet you fuflFercd your felves 
to be wheedled and cheated thus over 
and over again : as if you would crofs 
the Apoftles rule, and he Men in Ma- 
lic e^ but Children in underflanding. 
You heard your Minifterspray, for 


'2p8 A Continuation of 

inftance, that Babylon might faH, and 

the walls <>/ Jerufalem he built. And 

then you heard them ftirring you up 

with the greateft vehemence to give 

God no refi ^/i/Jerufalem was made a 

praife in the Earth. And when they 

fetyou all on fire with thefe defires, 

then you were very well contented to 

be made believe, it was a certain figa 

God would do the bufinefs, becaufe 

he had put it into your hearts to be fo 

carneft for it. How is it poflible faid 

they, that there fhould be fuch a fpi- 

rit of grace and fupplication poured 

fuddenly on the Nation, ifChrift 

were not coming down after it ? Since 

God hath knit the hearts ofhif people in 

fuch a Holy Con/piracy cu it were to he- 

fiege Heaven with their Prayers, all is 

En^iinccm-f^ot to begiven for lofi. a God hath fa- 

wa^^Sr'"''^^^ ^/^^^ ^^^'^^^ ofrefiraint from the 
god>P-77- lips of his people, b the Prayers of 
Gods people are gone up to Heaven in 
great JJfemblieSy and have furrounded 
the throne of Grace : God was never fo 
tempted to how the Heavens and come 
'^P^g=79' downtotherefcueofhis People, c God 


the Friendly Debate] 2pp 

will bow down his ears to them : if they 
cannot come to God, he will caufe his 
ear to come down to them ; He wtll make 
a hardfliift (a^ it were) to hear, ra- 
ther than their prayers he loft, d dpag. go. 

i\Z". c. You make me blufli to think 
how we have been gull'd. 

C. Soyou will be ftill. And it is 
no wonder they make fo bold with 
you ; fince they were fo bold with 
Godand with his holy Word; which 
they drew to be inflrrumental in the 
Cheat. They faniftified every defign 
with fome text of Scripture or other, 
and with many prayers : till they had 
defaced the certainty of Holy Writ ; and 
made no other thing of it than a Nofe of 
Wax, which may he turned any way as 
will ferze our purpofes. ^ You need nir. Knew- 
not be angry : they are the words of f^f^JI^^^ 
one efteemcd heretofore; though l^^J^v^- 
know not what thoughts you would "^ 
have of him, or he of you, if he lived 
now. If 1 may pafs my conjedture, 
I think he would take you to be the 
very fpawn of thofe Erownifts, which 
were fo juftly deteftcd in thofe dayes 


joo ^ Cmtinmtm of 

Fot he would hear the fame words and 
phrafes outof your mouths now,which 
he heard in thofe dayes from theirs, 
who cryed out upon an Idol Church, 
an Idol Minifiry, an Idol Government : 
And, as if they were fure to carry the 
caufe by thefe outcryes, they never 
ceafed to pour out thefe Accusations, 
wherewith the people were terribly 
affrighted. For they poor fouls ne- 
ver confidered that if all were granted 
that fuch words import, it would 
not prove a feparation fliould be made 
from our Aflemblies. For in what 
fenfecanaMinifter be faidto be an 
Idol, but in fuch an one as the people 
of JSf;^//?;;^ were called fo, by one of 
you ? 

N. c. What fenfe fliould that 

C. rie repeat his words if you 
pleafe ;which you may find in a Book 
Plain Rig* put forth on purpofe to prevent a 
^fil^^^'^' Peace between the King and Parlia- 
ment, upon any terms than fuch, as 
fliould make the King yield to all 
their defires. We have long pre- 


the Friendly Debate] 301 

tended zeal (faith that Author) 
againft Idolatry^ when in the mean 
time we are all become one Idol. Wc 
have eyes and fee not an Army of Pa- 
pifts, not only with /^^rm/jt/Fof^ allow- 
ed to ufe their own Religion, but 
with C^mmiffion appointed ( in event) 
to deftroy ours. We have Ears and 
hear not the continual blafphemics 
againft our God, the reproaches and 
flanders againft our Parliament. It 
cannot indeed be faid we have mouths 
and /peak not y for they that do leaft 
commonly fpeak moft ; But I am furc 
I may fay we have Feet and march not ; 
hands have 7r^> and handle not the 
Sword and Shield, 

N. C. You love ftill to be rubbing 
thefe old fores, as 1 told you once. 

C. Not I. But Hove to rub up 
your Memory, that you may refledt 
how your beloved phrafes are applied 
toall purpofes; and fee that an Idol 
Minifter can fignify nothing, but one 
that doth no more of the work of a 
Minifter, than the people, itfeems, 
did of your work of fighting againft 


30 2 A Continuation of 

the King ; till they were alarm'd by 
fuch clamors as thefe, and aflfraid to 
be thought Idolaters, or an Idol people. 
In fliort, he is fuch a perfon as the 
Shepherds of Ifrael were when they 
neglected their Office, and took no 
care of the flock comnciitted to their 
truft : Froniwhom notwithftanding 
the People of Ifrael were not to with- 
draw, nor to renounce all communion 
with them, and obedience to them. 
But befides this I would have you 
know, that if there be any Minifters 
among us that are but like W(?/i- and 
Images of men : there are thofe ( and 
thanks be to Gcd good ftore)who hear 
and feeandfpeak, and do the will of 
God, in the places where they are 

M.C, lam convinced of all this. 

C. But I pray once more obferve 
whether ail fuch writers and preach- 
ers as Mr. Bridge and the reft of the 
reparation in which you are ingaged, 
do not take more pains to prove the 
danger of Idolatry and the hainouf- 
nefs of the fin ; than to tell you what 


the Friendly Debate, 303 

Idolntry is, and to prove that it is 
Idolatry to joyn with us. Their way 
alwayes was to prove little and to ac- 
cufe ftoutly ; to declaim loudly, and 
not reafon ; to terrify the people by 
a dreadful found of words and raife 
great pafTions in then:i ; not to inform 
their judgments what they are to do 
and what to avoid. And for that pur- 
pofe nothing hath ever done them 
better fcrvice than Bahylorty and ey^- 
^ypty and the Golden Calves, and Idol 
Minifters, Idol Service and fuch like 
words of no certain and determinate 
meaning. And to fay the truth, in 
this, as Mr. Can himfelf could not 
but obferve a great while ago: con- 
fifts a great difference between 
Chrifts inftitutions, and mens inven- 
tions : Wbatfoever God will have %is do*soiRnd 
or not do^ he layes dorrn the fame ofenly,^^^J'^^^ 
precifely, manifejily ; but when iW^/yJ- Balls book 
jfeaks by hii Mruments, he jfeaks fo^f^,%%, ' 
ambigucufly and cloakedly^ that one 
knorrs not how to take it, nor which way 
to apply it '^. Which if you will but 
apply (as Mr. B^// told him) to your 


504 A Connmation of 

own manner of difputing and alledg- 
ing teftimonies,it will difcovcr your- 
'^ felves to be the deceivers ; who af- 
'^ fe(5l ambiguous and equivocal fpee- 
'^ches, andfeekby miftsandfoggsof 
^' ftrange and unufual arguments, and 
'^ fentences wrefted to a contrary 
*^ fenfe to blind the eyes and puzzle 
*' the underftanding of the fimple.For 
^^you hide your felves under the 
r^ " terms offalfe Church, falfe Minijlryy 
*'falfe Prophets, falfe Worjhip, flying 
^^ from Idolatry, taking heed of Idols, 
" &c. which you have taken up in a 
^^ peculiar fenfe ; and running along 
^^ in that ftrain you pervert the Scrip- 
**^tures, wrong Authors, confound 
''^things to be diftinguifhed, difpute 
*' fophiftically ; and while you boaft 
^* of clear proofs, dizine precepts, ex- 
'' ampler and pradl:ices of Forefathers, 
^^ £5^c. You only raife a dull to dazzle 
*' the eye. For let the matter be 
*^ look't into> and you have neither 
*^ divine Precept , nor example of 
*■* godly Forefathers to juftify your 
^^fcparation. What you teach hath 


the Friendly Dehate. 305 

>' been condemned in Schools , cryed 
" down in Sermons, difallow'd in all 
^'the Churches of the Saints from 
«' the very beginning to this day. 

JV. C, You are heated now to fome 

C. It is better you fliould blame 
my zeal , than I blame my own chil- 
ncfs; and I had rather a great deal be 
condemned ot fome violence,than of a 
lazy indiflference in thefe matters.For 
who is there that values his Religion^ 
and reverences the Sacred Scriptures, 
that can hear them thus abufed 
and not have his fpirit ftirred in 
him ? 

J\[.C. There arc thofe whothinJe 
they fmell fomething elfe thatftirs 
the fpirits of your Minifters. 

C. What fhould that be ? 

M C, Envy and anger that any 
men fhould be liked better than them- 
felves. It troubles them to fee any 
body leave their Churches and fol- 
low our Minifters; becaufe they 
would not be thought lefs able than 
they. And it's poflible their con- 
X gtega- 

2 o 5 A Contimation of 

gregations may be thin, when fo ma- 
ny have withdrawn themfelves from 

C. There is an old faying, that no 
man ever fought another in the Oven, 
who had not been there before himfelf 
Had not your Preachers been here- 
tofore tickled with the fight of full 
Congregations and the fancy of ha- 
ving many followers; they could 
never think Multitudes and throng'd 
A{Icmblies(which many do not want) 
fo neceflary to the contentment of 
any man of worth among us. And 
were not you intollerably proud and 
conceited of your felves, this imagi- 
nation could never have entred into 
your heads, that it dejedls our Mini- 
fters to want your company. What 
are you that they fliould tremble to 
hear you fay in a threatning manner. 
We will never hear him mare ? Are 
you the only men of Wifdom ; the 
ible Beauty of Chriftian Aflemblies ? 
Is all their labour loft if you be not 
there to commend it ? Are the reft of 
the people no better than the walls 


the Fritndly Debate] 

and the feates ? Speak man : Is it a 

great courtefie to a Minifter that you 

will be pleafed to hear him ? Mull he 

rhink himfelf beholden to you that 

you vouchfafe him your prefcnce ? 

S'ay take it for an honour that you 

:ome and help to make a numerous 

Vuditory; in which you fliine, as 

he precious ftones in a ring i O 

nodigious Vanity ! I have heard in- 

leed that fome of your Miniftcrs 

nade low reverences to you and ftu- 

ied to humour you, as if they 

lought you deferved much of them 

3r honouring their Aflemblies ; but 

know none of that mind : If you 

AW not come to hear them, you may 

ay away, and I wonder who will 

ave the worfe of it , you or 


A^. C, If they are not concern'd in 
lis, why do they keep fucha ftir 
Dout reparation ? cannot they let t\\c 
eople do as they will and fay no- 
ling ? To what purpofe is it to make 
)*great a noife about fuch little 
lings ? 

X 2 CHow 


joE A Continuation of 

C. How fay you , little things i 
Hear Mr. J. Ball I befeech you (a per 
fon whom you reverence 1 fuppofe^ 
who tells you in another Book of his; 
grounds of that how fmall foever the things ii 
Epiftifto"' themfelves may feem to be, theevii 
the Reader cenfequcnccs that follow thereupor 
be both many and great. ^^ It is nc 
" fmall matter to bury that under the 
'^ condemnation of falfe worfhip (aj 
'^ Mr. Bridge doth ) which the Lore 
'' the Author of all Truth , the De- 
^'terminer of his true pleafing anc 
*^ acceptable worfliip ; doth allow ir 
'^ his fervice. It is no fmall offence 
" to forfake the prayers of the Con 
^^gregation, to depart from the 
^' Table of the Lord , when he call* 
'' to feaft with himfelf ; and to breal 
'^ off Society and Communion wit! 
'' the Church of Ghrift, to fill the 
'* hearts of weak Chriftians witl: 
^'doubts and diftracftions , as not 
*^ knowing what to do , or what waj 
^^ to take ; to fpend time in reafon- 
** ings and difputings of this kind 
** which might much more profitablj 


the Friendly Debate] 309 

'* be imploycd in the pracftice of Rc- 
" pentance and holy obedience ; to 
"expofe Religion to contempt, and 
'* the truth of God to reproach a- 
^' mong them that delight to fpeak 
I*' evil. Thefe are fad effecfts of this 
*^ Separation which I oppofe : which 
*^ tends not (as he fpeaks in his An- 
'' fwer to Cart,) to the overthrow of 
*^ Antichriffc , but to the renting of 
^' the Church, the difgrace of Reli- 
^' gion , the advancement of Pride, 
*' Schifm and contention, the offence 
'^ of the weak, the grief of the Godly 
f^ who are better fetled, the hardning 
" of the wicked , and the Recovery 
^* or rifing of Antichriftianifm. As 
for other evils ( which he mentions 
not) fuch as the alienation or abate- 
ment of affedtion even where there 
is the neareft bond of Society ; and 
the fowring of mens minds towards 
their Governours, in whom they can- 
not fo heartily rejoyce as they ought, 
while they take them to be the im- 
pofers of Idolatrous Ceremonies, or • 
linful worftiip ; I will not difcourfc 
Xj of 

3 1 o A Cbminmion of 

of them neither : Not becaufc thej 
are light matters ; but becaufe I have 
many things to add and would not be 
too tedious. 

N, G. 1 remember fomething ir 
Mr. Ball to this purpofe, and 1 con 
fefs it afledled me then , and made 
me fearful to fall into the reparation : 
efpecially becaufe of another fad ef 
fecfl which was ufually obferved in 
thofe days to follow thefc Divifi- 
ons, among the people of your Per 

C. What is that? 

M, C, 1 heard fome fay, that 
when men faw thofe who were fo well 
conceited of their own knowledge, 
iincerity and piety above others, mif- 
takefogrofsly, and be fo rigidly pre- 
cifc as to make that fin which God 
never made fo; they fell intodiflike 
even of all the good that was in 
them : And difcerning how little rea- 
fon they hid for this ftricknefs, pre- 
fently imagined they had as little 
' fgr the ftricknefs of their lives and 

converfations in all other matters. 
. •" CThey 

the Friendly Debate. 

C They told you the truth and 
you ftiould confider it now. There 
is nothing more difficult than to fe- 
ver good and evil when they are mixt 
together. The good is frequently 
rejedled by fome for the Evils fake ; 
and the evil received by others for the 
fake of the good. Men are wont ei- 
ther to like or diflike all that they fee 
I in thofe of whom they conceive a 
good or ill Opinion. They that love 
the piety of fome Minitters, fall in 
love alfo with their precifenefs ; and 
they that hate their Precifenefs, may 
fall into hatred of their Piety. 

MC. I am glad you will allow any 
thing that 1 fay. 

C Did you think me of fo per- 
,verfe a humour, as to fhutmyeyes 
againft the light of the Sun , becaufe 
an enemy opens the Windows to let 
\t in ^ I will ever embrace and juftifie a 
truth, come it from whom it will, And 
I pray know once for all, that Ida 
not approve of thofe who out of ha- 
tred to the fuperftition of your peo- 
ple, brand all that are of ftridland 
X 4 holy 

1 1 

J12 A Continmtion of 

holy lives with the name of Preshyte- 
rian, Fanatick or focne fuch like. But 
it would do well if you would confi- 
fider, that which was the occafion of 
this difcourfe ; how much hurt you 
do by being fo rigid where there is 
no need. This tempts inconfiderate 
people on the one fide to think it is 
but needlefs fcrupulofity that makes 
you careful in other things which 
Chrift indeed hath tyed us unto : at 
leaft they will put off your reproofs 
for their Debaucheries , byaccufing 
you of more precifenefs than you 
have reafon for. And on the other 
fide; you obferving the unexcufe- 
able loofenefs of fome that are ene- 
mies to your fuperftition ; are temp- 
ted thereby to ftrengthen your felves 
the more in it, and to ftand the more- 
ftifly in your feparation from us. So^ 
that both fides are the worfe for 
thefe dlf?erences , and increafe their 
evil humours by thefe oppofitions. 

MC. 1 cannot contradidl you in 


the Friendly Debate. 313 

C. I muft tell you one thing more. 
While men on both fides have by 
their contentions and hatreds gone 
farther and farther one from the o- 
thcr; they have fain at laft into moft 
fearful Extremities. On your part, 
fome have proceeded to that degree 
of deteftation, as to condemn us of 
Idolatry and Antichriftianifm , and 
have fain not only into all the dregs 
of BroTvnifme and Anabaptifme , but 
into the dotages of the Quakers, and 
the men of the fifth kingdom. And 
on our part, fome have drawn fo far 
from you, as to fallback into Pope- 
ry, perhaps into J^/^^z/Jn, at leaft in- 
difference about Religion ; virhich 
arc difeafes too frequent alfo among 
your felves. If therefore the credit 
of Religion (as Mr.B^// again fpeaks) 
the glory of God, the Souls of Bre- 
thren be dear to us, *^ vyhat can we do 
<Mefs than by a juft defence of the 
" Truth, feek the reclaiming of fuch 
^^ as are gone aftray, the eftablifhing 
<' of them that are weak in judgment, 
^* but zealoufly afledled to the wayes 

'' of 

2 14 Conmuanon oj 

'* of God ; ftop the ftream of fedu- 
"cing, free the Godly from unjuft 
" imputations, fettle peace and unity 
^* in the Truth among Brethren ; and, 
*^ 1 may add , to keep the whole Na- 
^< tion, if it be poffible , from fuch 
*' dangerous precipicies as they are 

^^ drawing towards. 

N. C. I hope you have a good 
meaning : But you fliould confider 
that 1 and the Preshyteridns are not 
withdrawn to fuch a diftance from 
you as you fay fome are. We do 
not feparate from the Congregations 
as ^Atttichriftian , nor think that you 
are not the Churches of Jefus Chrift; 
which was the error of the Erownijis 
and fuch like Schifmaticks. 

C You fliould have added, of Mr. 
Bridge and the reft of his partakers 
as I have plainly fhown you : and I 
wifh I could not fay of fome Preshy- 
tcrians too , who once abhorr'd fuch 
rents as they have now made. For 
what did they mean to call us Babylon 
fo oft , if they would not have the 
people think ( whatfoever they 


the Friendly Debate. j ! y 

thought themfelves ) that we were 
jtnticbrijlian ? Expound to me all 
the paflfages already mentioned ; par- 
ticularly that of Mr. Cafe jufl: now 
cited : Tell me what you think of the 
diftinB and audible voice from heaven 
vphich they heard to call you to come out 
cfBahylon. Why did he make the 
war between the King and You, toEngimcbu- 
be the battle between ^lichael and hif rSTiS^^* 
Angels y and the Dragon and his ? and '^^' 
the peace which fome wiflitand was 
fometimes hoped ; a cfnnpounding of 
the hu(jne(i between Chrift and jinti- 
chrift ? Tell me, if you fay true, why 
they took the liberty to tell you, 
7 hat when Epifcopacy and Liturgy were Preface to 
re ft or ed in Scotland, then Will- worfthip'^^i^^^^f 
and damnable Idolatry was ft up ? 
And to pafs by thefpeechesof your 
railing Vicars , why did Mr. Fr Wood- 
cock (in his Ledtures at St. Lawrence 
before named) call the Bifhops and 
their Partakers 1 cannot tell how oft, 
the Fopijh faBion the 'ylntichriftian 
faBion, the ^Antichriftian party who 
flew the witneffes, i. e> fufpendcd and 


'312 ^A Continuation of 

filenced fome Minifters for not con- 
forming to the Laws? Laftly why 
were thefe Lectures Ordered to be 
printed ; and every Pulpit fuflfered 
to found with fuch like language? If 
all thefe things were faid in heat, the 
better to ftir up the peoples paffions; 
fay fo, and we have done. You fhall 
never hear a fyllable of the late times 
from me ; if you do but ingenuoufly 
confefs your raflinefs , and humble 
your felves for thefe and fuch like 
faults. Or if any of you were then 
of the mind that Epifcopacy was An- 
tichriftian (as it is affirm'd in the 
"view of the Covenant, p. 54.) a limb 
or claw of the Beaft, as the Erownifls 
phrafe was , but now are of another 
opinion ; let us know, it , that we 
may rejoyce in the change. Wife men 
fometimes change opinions and Coun- 
feh , though fools do not. And they , 
will change for the better as Mr. 
Bridge hath done for the worfe. For 
there was a time when he and his 
Brethren made this Declaration be- 
fore God and all the world concern- 

the Friendly Debate. '5 1 n 

ing the Engli/h Churches, In rvhich, 
fay they , through the grace of God jve Apoioget. 
jrere converted , that all that Confci- 1643^^"^ 
ence of the Defilements we conceived 
to cleave to the True Worfhip of God 
in them, or of the unwarrantable pow- 
er in Church'Governours exercifed 
therein , did never work in any of us 
any other thought , much lefs opinion ; 
but that multitudes of the Affemblies 
and Parochial Congregations thereof 
were the true Churches and Body of 
Chrifif and the Minifiry thereof a true 
^SMinifiry ; much lefs did it ever enter 
into our hearts to judge them Antichri- 
flian. Why they fliould fay ^J^ul- 
titudes and not all, fince they had the 
fame form of Divine fervice and were 
under the fame Government, I know 
not ; for it cannot be meant of fuch 
Churches where the Minifterswere 
chofcn by the People , which were 
but few. Nor am I concern'd to 
know the fenfe of thofe words ; but I 
would gladly know if they pleafe,why 
they cannot now fee multitudes of 
fuchChurches;and by what new light 


Si8 A Continuation of 

or Revelation Mr. Bridge hath dif- 
covered our Worfhip and Churches 
to be Antichriftian, from which the 
Saints muft come forth and feparate 
themfelves. Or rather (for now you 
would have me fpeak to you alone) 
why fo many Fresbyterians withdraw 
themfelves from our Prayers and Sa- 
craments , and hold feparate Aflem- 
blies in oppofition to ours ? You do 
not make your caufe the better but 
the worfe by this acknowledgment^ 
that you do not depart from us as no 
true Churches of Jefus Chrift : and 
ftand condemned by your own decla- 
red Principles , and all the writings 
of your Forefathers. To for fake the 
true Churches of Chriji (faith Mr. J. 
Goodwin himfelf ) and the t!Miniflry 
Letter to ^^^^^^/» Inhere men have been converted 
Mr.Thomas and buflt Up, and have converted and 
from Mr. built Up fo many , with thefetting up of 
icfoS'he"^^^^ Churches y againfi the leave and 
dependlnt. ^'^^ ^f ^^^ ^^^^^ ^Ugiflrate y without 
the confent cfthofe Churches departed 
fromy and to the fcandal and grief of 
fo many godly (iMiniJfers and Chrifti- 


the Friendly Debate] 3 1 9 

atis , nay the fcandal of all reformed 
Churches 'y and thii under the pretence 
of fpiritual power and liberty pur chafed 
for them hy Chrift ; had need have a 
clear and full proof, and not he huilt 
only upon fuch rreak and flight grounds, 
as flattering fimilitudes y witty al/ufions, 
remote confequences j ftrain d and forced 
interpretations from hard and much 
controverted Scriptures. What clear 
proofs he afterward found I cannot sionCoU. 
tell , but when he had rent himfelf^ 
even from the Presbyterian Churches, 
he could not but give this Honorable 
Teftimony to ours ; that travellers 
from all parts confirmed , that there 
was more of the truth and power of Re- 
ligion in England under the late Pre- 
latical Government , than in all the 
Reformed Churches befides. There- 
fore I muft befeech you again to con- 
fider what folid grounds you have for 
forfaking fuch a Church as this; which 
hath been thcMother of fo many pious 
fouls, and extorted fuch praifes even 
from thofe undutiful children, who 
©ut of I know not what humor, life 


A Contimation of 

up their heel againft her. What 
fpot do you fpy in her now, which 
you could not difcern heretofore? 
Or if there be any, what foul Mon- 
fter fhould it be that thus affrights 
you, if indeed we be not the Beaft, 
nor any limb of hin) ? You that pro- 
fefs fo much tendernej^of Confcience , 
fliould rather methinks, be horribly 
afraid, fince you think we are a 
Church ftill united to Chrift, left by 
feparating from us , you cut your 
lelves off from him , and run in time 
to the greateft extremities , and ut- 
terly renounce and difown us. For as 
Mr.B/^// hath well obferved, 'Ihey that 
have once broken off from us , have run 
from one error into another y after the 
fond imaginatioft of their heart , //// 
they have dafht themfelves againft the 
Rocks. And indeed how can you ex- 
pe(fl it fliould be otherwife. '* There 
^' is but one Body, the Church ; but 
'^ one Lord or Head of the Bodv, 
** Chrift : whofoever feparates from 
** the Body, therefore feparates from 
[' Chrift in that refpedl. And if we 


the Friendly Deme. 5^ 

'^withdraw our fclves from him 
^' where he gracioufly invites us to 
'^feaft with him^may we not juftly fear 
'*hc will withdraw himfelf from us, 
^^ and make us feek when we fhall not 
** find him ? This voluntary repara- 
tion from the Lords Table and the 
^' Prayers of the Congregation, is a 
'willing excon::imunication of our 
' felves from the Vifible tokens of the 
' Lords prefence and Love. And if 
'it be a grievous fin in Church 
' Governors to deprive any Membeif 
'of the Church of all Communion 
'with the Vifible Church upon light 
' and unneceflary occafions,is it not a 
greater fin in theMembers to deprive 
' themfelves of the fame Communi- 
'on upon the like or lefs occafions ? 
kVithout all doubt, this fin will be 
mniflied with blindncfs of mind if 
ou perfift in it. Such offenders 
laving run ( as 1 am able to prove ) 
rom one thing to another with the 
reateft confidence, till they came 
o think themfelves infpired and full 
f the Holy-Ghoft, even when they 
Y rail'd 

^2 2 A Continuation of 

raird and reviled all other Chur- 
ches : and when thofe heates failed, 
to think that all Religion was a 
mere hypocondriacal Delufion. This 
Mr. Calvin aflured you long ago 
would be the fate of Separatifts from 
fuch a Church as Ours ; Becaufe they 
dijfolve (faith he) the facte d Bond of 
Unity y no man p^all efcape this jufl pu- 
nijhmerjt of his divorce y that he fhall in- 
toxicate himfelf with mofi pejiilent er- 
rors, and mofi foul dotages^ Nay, 
your own Minifters could admonifh 
Advertife* Y^vi heretofore ; that when Religion 
ment^upon either hy choice or force is propagated in 
before the Comers, many Heretical DoBrines are 
the Bible hatched and preached, and afterward, 
^^45« If Y\(\ay he, printed too ; which had not 
been conceived nor divulged if the Au- 
thors of them had continued in the focie- 
tyofpubliqueAffemhlies. And there- 
fore you, fhe thinks above all other 
men fliould dread the fadeflfedls of 
this new feparation ; as much as 
thofe men do the fea, who feel them- 
felves yet wet, and come forth drop 
ping from a wreck. Remember youri 


the Friendly Debate. 523 

own fad complaints and Lamenta- 
tions, the Shriekes and the Crycs, 
which are yet frefh in our ears ; Re- 
member what Rocks you dalh't a- 
gainft when you had once forfaken 
our Company and broken the Bond of 
Unity, Call to mind how many per- 
fifted; and in what danger all were 
to be loft. Did you not pray the 
five Brethren to confider in the begin- 
ning of the Storm , that in their 
Church way into which many were 
running, there would be no end of 
Schifms : but every two or three 
members if they pleafed might fet up 
a Church by themfelves ? Witnefs 
the rent in that Church where Mr. 
BridgCy^ndi MtSympfon were teachers 
at Rotterdam. Where Mr. 5;m/?/o//,as ^"f^^po^^* 
Mr. Edvpards informs us, having on- 
ly a Merchant and his wife, joyning 
with him at the firft, feparated from 
Mr. Bridge and fet up a new Church 
of their own : of which a Woman 
(Mrs. White) was the foundrefs as 
Mr. Bn<^^^ himfelf hath faid. And 
when they were thus torn in funder, 
Y z both 

324 ^ Continuation 0} 

both parts of the Divifion fell toge- 
ther by the ears among themfelves. 
There was a new rent in Mr. Sympfons 
company, and Mr. Ward colleague 
t® Mr Bridge, was depofed from his 
Miniftry and office by Mr. Bridge his 
Church, for fome frivolous differen- 
ces. And fuch was the bitternefs, re- 
vilings and reproaches exprefled in 
the letter that pafs'd between them, 
that the Readers ears would tingle 
fliould he hear them.In fhort, the Jews 
and the Samaritans were not greater 
Enemies, than thefe were one to an- 
other ; as my Author affirms. 

N* C, Mr. Edwards you mean. 

C, Yes, and 1 hope you think him 
a good one now, as you did hereto- 
fore. If not, I can juftify what he 
fayes out of a learned Dutch writer if 
you pleafe. 

i\7". c. I am not much concern'd 
about this. 

C. But you are concern'd to keep 
in mind thefe fcandals in feparate 
Congregations. And it will do you 
no hurt, I am fure, to reflecil a great 


the Friendly Debate] "325 

deal farther back ; and confider what 
work the ancient Scparatifls of our 
Nation made in the fame Country. 
John f on and ^infworth fell out at Am- 
fierdam, and their Congregation was 
divided into two, one of which ex- 
communicated the other. The two 
Johnfons alfo, though Brethren in na- 
ture as well as Religion, fell into 
fuch a fiery contention upon a fmall 
occafion, that George the younger, 
became a Libeller and loaded his Bro- 
ther and others with many reproach- 
es, and that in Print ; to remain for 
ever. The Elder broke fellowfhip 
with him and with his own Father 
( who took part with George and curf- 
cd the other with all the curfes in 
Gods Book) and this breach was 
confirm'd by the heavy fentence of 
Excommunication, and both Father 
and Brother delivered up to the De- 
vil. But then at Leiden, J. Smith 
condemned them all, and accufed 
them of Idolatry ; telling them that 
their Conftitution was as very a Har- 
lot as either her mother England, or 
Y 3 Grand- 

325 A Continuation oj 

Grandmother Roms; and that the 
Separation was the yi?^;/^^/? andfaireji 
daughter of Rome the Harlot, The 
reafon was, becaufe they look't into 
their Bibles when they preach't, and 
Into the Pfalter when they fung ; 
For the Holy Scriptures , he faidj, were 
not to be retained as helps before the eyes 
in time ofworjhip, and particularly that 
it was unlawful to have a Book before 
them in finging of Ffalms, Befides, 
their Government he thought was 
Antichriflian ; becaufe they joyned to 
Paflors, other DoSIors and ReSiors, 
which was an humane invention. And 
fo he fell to the Anabaptifts; where 
he madealfoa newfedt, by baptizing 
himfelf. If you pleafe to have fome 
of his Words perhaps they may be 
ufeful to you ; when Popifh prelacy. 
In his Book a faith he, was fuppreffed, and the 

called, the -»^ . « i -n r / • n /? 

Diflferences '^Jrtformed Presbytery (viz. Jrajtors, 

chesl^ti^'^^ Teachers and Elders) fubftituted ; 

separation, u one Jntichrifi was put down, and 

*^ another fet up in his place: or 

*^ the Beafi was fuppreflcd and his I- 

" mage advanced. And therefore, as 


the tnemly LJet?ate. 527 

'^ they that fubmit to the Prelacy are 
^^ fubje(5l to that wo oiWorjhipping the. 
" Beafl ; fo they that fubmit to the 
^^ Triform* d Presbytery, are in like 
*^ manner liable to that wo denounced 
*^ againft them that Wor[hip the Image 
<' of the Beafl, 

i\7". C. I perceive what you are go- 
ing to fay, you would have me mark 
again, how every Party paints their 
Oppofites in the fhape of this ugly 
Beaft ; to terrify fimple people with 
it, as we do children with Bug- Mr.R. Bern. 

kf»«r^ Plain Evi'- 

C. Andwhofoever reads and con-^^iap.^ 
fidersthefe things will be I think, of 
old Mr. Bernards mind who told this 
Nation threefcore years ago, that ii 
if better to endure corruptions in a 
Church , than be turmoiled with fuch 
diflraBionSy and to be brought into fuch 
confufions : even a Babel of languages, 
of opinions, of JJfemblies, of Govern- 
ing, of Government and whatnot. It 
is a blejjing to be Well ; but a greater 
hlejjing to know it, andfo to abide. For 
befides other Separations which I 
Y 4 could 

326 ^A Continuation of 

could tell you of, the iffue and refult 
of all was this ; the decay of all true 
piety ^ and a turning all Religion into 
wrangling, cenfuring and condemn- 
ing one another. For, as all that 
have declined to that Schifm ( mark it 
I befeech you, if the characfter do not 
confUtati- concern fome of you ) ^ic found to he 
^^^^^^^^"escceedin£ proud, and difdainful to- 

paratift a* , / / i • i i 

greed upon ii?^r^ J all that are contrary mtndedj 
the^oynt ^ Tea cvcnfuch 04 ( before they were in- 
manrnon/^<^^^ mththat kvcn) werepattems 
conf. Mini= (,f ^// Iq^q modeffv and humility to 

fters, pub- -^ r. .// ; / i i 

\^{[\zdhy^^r.cthers : Cio vptll they not acknowledge 

W. Rath-- ' /• I /7 ; / 

hiiid,i64.i. nor reverence any of the mojf excellent 
part.4.p.62. Graces that God hath given to any of his 
fervants among us, nor Jo much refpedl 
them, a^. the very Papifis will do. Noy 
they pr of e(? greater deteflation and de- 
ff>ighttoihe mofl godly and mop fincere 
men among us, than they do tofuch as 
are mofl notorious in Prophanenefi and 
Malice to the Truth. And a Divine 
more ancient than thefe, gave this 
remarkable Defcription of the fruits 
produced by feparate Congregations. 
Look upon the people faith he, and 


the Friendly Debate] ^2p 

you fhall fee very many who not regard' ,_c-| 
ing the chief Chrifl tan Virtues and godly 
duties ; as namely to he meek, to he pa- ford^phm * 
tienty to he lowly, to he full of love and f^'^^^^^''^^ 
mercy, to deal uprightly and jufily, /o "nderwices; 
guide their families in thefearofGoddKatee\cry 
with wholfome InflruBions, and toftand cEi^but 
faft in the calling in which God hath fet"^^^^'}^^, 
them ; aive themfelves wholly to this,^^^^,"^<^^^^f^ 
even en tftt were the Jum and rtth (?/on,An.is9o 
Religion, namely, to argue and talk 
continually againft matters in the 
Church, againft Bifljops and Minifters, 
and one againft another on hoth fides. 
Some are proceeded to this that they 
will come to the Ajfemhlies to hear Ser- 
mons and Prayers of the Preacher, hut 
not to the Prayers of the Book : which I 
take to he a more grievous fin than many 
dofuppofe. But yet this is not the worft ; 
Forfundry are gone further 4ndfaln into 
a damnahle Schifm ; and the fame fo 
much the more fearful and dangerous, 
in that many do not fee the FoulneJ? of 
it : hut rather hold them as godly Ghri- 
ftians ; and hut a little overfiot infome 
matters. Which words I have the 


Vtq a Continuation of 

rather recited, that you may fee 
what thoughts the moft moderate 
men heretofore h^d concerning the 
way into which you are falling. 

N.c. Truly, I can fcarccfee for 
what end you have told me all thefe 
old ftories. 

c. That's ftrange ! I was admo- 
nifliing you of the care that you 
fliould take above all others, not to 
run into thefe dangerous paths : who 
have not only heard all thefe things 
from thofe before us, but alfo feen 
with your eyes, and felt by dear ex- 
perience, the great fwarms of Sedls 
and Herefies that have come out of 
feparate Congregations; and the 
miferable havock they have made of 
all true Religion and Godlinefs. Now 
what fecurity I befeech you, have any 
of you that the Congregations you 
begin to draw from us, apart to your 
felves; Ihall not break in time into 
as many little fractions, and produce 
thefe bitter fruits which 1 have menti- 
oned ? what charm, what power have 
you to keep out this evil Spirit,whicH 


the Friendly Debate. . 351 

alwayes haunted the reparation ? All 
the Authority which your Minifters 
may think they have, hath no foun- 
dation but the Pafllons of the com- 
mon people. It depends for the moft 
part on the fancies of rude Artifans, - 
and Ignorant Mechanicks. Thefe 
will make their Divinity for them; 
and they muft ftill be inventing new 
conceits to entertain their Imagina- 
tions. They are fervants to fuch a 
world of Matters, that it is evident 
they have reafon to fear their own 
fide, as much as ours. And when 
they have done all they can, they arc 
liable to be thought Impoftors, as 
oft as any man thinks he is taught of 
God, and hath a new light fhining 
into his mmd. Then fhall you fee 
again all thofe wild fancies fly about 
which are now in great meafure falln 
to the ground. Old England may be- 
come as mad as the Nevp : and fuch a 
woman as Mrs. Hutchinforiy that Ihall 
take upon her to repeat your Sermons 
as (he did thofe oiyir. Cottons \ may 
be more cryed up than all the Mini- 
fters you have. N, C.\t 

33^ ^ Continuation of 

N, C. It is impoflible. 
C. That which hath been done 
more than once, may be done again. 
For the Wine of reparation ( as two 
i\r^7r-£^^/^«^Minifters call it) hath 
fuch a fpirit in it as flyes up furioufly 
into mens heads, and works with a 
reftlefs violence there. It hurries 
and Mr. them head-long as they fpeak, to 
D^nSof ftrange diftances ; that in feparating 
Q^^J^^y!' f^om publick, they fepar ate from pri- 
vate \ in feparating from corrupt Chur- 
ches {as no Churches ) they fepar ate 
from the pure ft even thofe of their own ; 
in feparating from pollutions in Gods 
Ordinances, at laft they fall to the 
ftormingof fome, if not the utter re- 
nouncing of all the Ordinances them- 
f elves. For when rafh andfudden men 9 
are grown Mafters of their Confciences ; 
it troubles not them from whom they di- 
vide y nor whither they run in fepar ate 
Ttayes, At the very next ftep they 
are under the Miniftration of the Spi- 
rit, tis the Phrafe was in the late times. 
They live upon Pure and Naked God 
in themfclves, unclothed of flefli 


the Friendly Debate I 3 j j 

and Form. They are rifen and caught 
up out of flefli into Spirit, out of 
Form into Power, out of Type into 
Truth, out of Shaddow into Sub- 
ftance, out ofthe Sign into the thing 
Signified. And fo they drink wine 
new in the Kingdome, even new in 
the Kingdom ; not in the Oldne(i of 
the Letter, but in the Newneiioi the 

A^. c. I remember how this W%ie, 
as you call it, wrought in the late 
times, and there are none figh more 
than we to think ofthe fpiritual mad- 
nefs that then raged. And I afTurc 
you we bewail and lament with many 
tears our prefent Divifions ; and have 
kept as many dayes as there are 
weeks in the year to fcek the Lord 
for the healing of our fad breaches. 

C^ To what purpofe is that, as 
long as you keep them wide open, by 
withdrawing yourfelves from the 
publick Aflemblies of Gods people ? 
You had better fpare all that breath ; 
for it is as ridiculous, as if a man 
fliould cry and roar under the fmart 


534 ^ Continuation of 

of a wound, and yet would not keep 
himfelf from raking in it continually 
with his nailes. Why do you not 
ufc the means of Union if you truly 
defire it ? What is the caufe you 
follow not fuch Chriftian Counfel as 
I made bold the laft time to leave with 
you ? That would be more effevftual 
than all your fafts and Prayers, which 
in truth ferve only to continue the 
D#ifion and keep our Wounds gape- 
ing. For they are the very things, 
as you ufe them, which make the 
Schifm ; and yet they perfwade the 
people,that^o« are not too blame, but 
the Bijhops only. 

Kc. OSir, that you would but 
lay the Saddle upon the right Horfe, 
You load us with many accufations, 
but the Biftiops are in fault who will 
not remove the fubje(5l of thefe con- 
tentions. If you were not partial 
you would admonifh them, as well as 
us : and tell them they ought not to 
ftand fo precifely upon indifferent 
things , and alter nothing. This 
would be a fhort way to remedy all 


the Friendly Debate. 555: 

our evils, to take away the things 
which are offenfive to the weak, and 
fo become inconvenient, if not un- 
lawful. And you know who faid, 
that Contentions retaining of Cuftoms 
is a turbulent thing as well as Innno- 
'vations. Why do you not put them 
in mind of thefe things, but fpend 
your time only in telling us our. 
Duty ? 

c. I am not fo well conceited of 
my felf as to think 1 am alike able to 
judg, what is convenient, and what 
is lawful. For it requires not only 
great underftanding in the nature of 
things, but alfo in the nature and 
temper of men, in the ftate of affairs 
at home and abroad ; together with 
diligent and long obfervation, and 
indeed all the pcrfedlions of a pru- 
dent Governor ; to be able to deter- 
mine what is moft expedient for a 
Church or State ; But every Chri- 
ftian may foon refolve or receive fa- 
tisfacflion about what is finful, or 
permitted to him. Befides, were I 
never fo skilful, I Ihould not have 


33^ -^ Continuation of 

the confidence ( to which it feems 
you are arrived ) to inftrudl my fu- 
periors : It is enough for me to deal 
with my equals. Though modeft 
propofals and humble defires with- 
out any noife and ftir, I prefume 
would never be difliked from any of 
us : and had you always taken that 
courfe from the beginning > it had 
been better for you:But youwere ever 
for ajfertions andpofitiom (as my Lord 
Baconlong ago obferved) and filled 
all the Nation as much as you could 
with difpleafure againft their Gover- 
nors ; and taught them to efteem the 
comipounding of controverfies to fa- 
vour of mans Wifdom and humane 

JSf. C. No, we are now for an Ac- 

C' You do well to put in that 
word now , for it was ever otherways 
heretofore , and Books were written 
againft it ( as I will fhew you if you 
defire it ) when you hoped to carry 
all before you. And it is a great ar- 
gument of your headijnefs and paifli- 


th Friendly Debate] jj'-j 

on(to fay no more)that when you had 
power to accommodate Differences 
you would not; and now you cry out 
for it, when it is neither in your 
power nor ours. For why do you 
lay the Bijhops fliould remove out of 
the way the things that trouble you ? 
Have they power to alter laws and 
change them at their pleafure ? Are 
not they bound up and tied to obedi- 
ence as well as your felves ? All that 
they can do is but to joy n their Votes 
together with many other, to fettle 
that Religion which is found and 
good ; it being the foundation of all 
Laws and the common bond of hu- 
mane Society : and when it is efta- 
bliflit to take the fame care that it 
be preferved from fudden and unne- 
ceflfary alterations in any thing be- 
longing to it ; which are always dan- 
gerous not only to Religion , but to 
the Civil Peace. Now fince it is plain 
they judge it not fit to promote a 
change becaufeof fome mens diflike, 
and none ought to be defired, in my 
poor judgments againft the Opinion 

Z and 

Vog A Contimation of 

and without the confent of our Spi- 
ritual Governours ; who have more 
Wifdom, and not lefs piety fure 
than we ; what have you and I to do 
but to feek peace and unity fome 
other way without alterations? A 
Schifm you fee is moft pernicious, 
and like to prove moft deadly to all 

i\T C Let me interpofe one thing 
which I forgot before. We are not 
formed into Churches , and fo do not 
make a ftridl feparation from you as 
others do. 

C. So much the greater danger of 
all the mifchiefs before mentioned : 
that men Ihould grow wild and mad 
when they are at fuch liberty, an4 
under no government but their own 
fancies. This your Minifters can- 
not but underftand well enough: and 
therefore muft either come to us^ or 
caft you into a great many little Bo- 
dies by your felves. 

JM. C. I wifh heartily we were uni- 
ted to the main Body of your 


the FrifYidly Debate] 3 39 

C. I am glad to hear you fay fo. 
But it you would have your wifhes 
accompliflied , you muft contribute 
with all your power to the ending 
our quarrels , by ftudying thofe 
things that make for peace. Do not 
talkot the Duty of your Governors, 
but think ferioufly of your own. And 
fince it is manifcft as 1 told you, that 
they judge it not meet to promote 
any alteration of that which hath 
been fo long fettled ; and fince it is 
granted by fo many of you that the 
things enjoyned by Law are not un- 
lawful , and by fo many of us they 
are thought not to be inconvenient ; 
leave thefe earneft indeavours to al- 
ter the haws and alter^owr fehes. 

N. C. What would you have us 

do? ' 

C. I would have you fettle your 
felves (and not be thus wavering) in 
this perfwafion , that -it is lawful to 
joyn with us in the Worlhip of God, 
as noTV eftahli/hed : And then refolvc 
that it belongs only to thofe to de- 
termine of the Conveniency of 
Z z things. 

54 o ^ Continuation of 

things , who have power to do what 
they beft like, and wifdom and judge- 
ment to weigh all circumftances and 
make choife of the beft courfe : And 
that if they miftake, their error fliall 
not be imputed to you, who have no- 
thing to do in fuch matters. After 
this , weigh ferioufly and often the 
great mifchiefs of Separation, which 
far exceed all the Inconveniencies 
which can be fancied in all our Cere- 
monies. And then your Minifters 
muft indeavour to make their ac- 
quaintance and followers of this be- 
lief; and confirm them in it by com- 
ing to the Common -Prayer, and in- 
forming them that all the ancient Pu- 
ritans ( as they were called) did not 
hold it unlawful to joy n with us, but 
the contrary, to feparate from us. 
Nay, let them teach them that it is 
a great deal better to do fomethings 
which poflibly they had rather let 
alone , than quarrel and break the 
peace of the Church of God. They 
have the Example of Mr. Calvin for 
it, who finding that during his exile 


thf Friendly Debate] 34 1 

from Geneva , they had brought back 
the ufe of the Wafer Cake of un- 
leavened bread, would not contend 
about it , though he did not like it. 
He knew as well as you , it was not 
commanded by God , and that there 
was no neccfllty of it ; nay, that this 
fort of bread had been the invention 
of the Papifts , and abufed by them 
to fuperftition and Idolatry; and 
that they made unleavened bread no- 
ceflfary to the Sacrament , and urged 
it as of Divine Inftittition , for which 
caufes he diflik'd it ; but yet he 
would not ftrive $ though he would 
not have been to break a cuftom , but 
only to go back where he left them ; 
becaufe he faw it would make a rent. 
Would you would but imitate his 
DIfcretion, and we fliould fee an end 
3f our Difputes ; Efpecially if you 
would not be fo peremptory; for 
:here can be no peace while you affirm 
with fo much confidence that this 
and that doubtful thing is the Mind 
if the Lord, St. Paul was content 

|\as my Lord Bacons I think, fomc 
i " "'" 

342 A Continuation of 

where obferves) to fpeak in this man- 
ner in fome cafes, Ihusjay I, tiot the 
Lord : and according to my counfeL 
But now men do fo lightly fay. Not 
I, hut the Lord, yea and bind it with 
fuch heavy denunciations of his judg- 
ments ; that they diftradl poor Souls 
that would willingly do all that God 
would have them> and make Diffe- 
rences fo wide , that we can never 
come together. Be modeft there- 
fore in your affedtions, defires, and 
all your carriage and behaviour. 
Speak well alfo of the prefentMini- 
fters that conform in every thing to 
the Law, who approve themfelves to 
God and menby their diligence and 
piety. Be not ready to proclaim the . 
negligence or perhaps evil manners 
of any. Hear all their inftrucflions 
with Reverence, and if you be other- 1 
wife minded in any thing , keep it ' 
to your felves, and make no ftir about 
it. In fhort do all that ever you can 
without finning ; and if you do not 
condemn nor feparate from thofe 
who do more than you ; then your 


the Friendly Debate . i^ 2 

Omiflions may be pardoned, and you 
may more reafonably cxpecft indul- 
gence or accommodation , when you 
do your Duty as well as you arc able, 
than now that you are difobedient, 
and obftinately refufe to obey Autho- 
rity in things you acknowledge not 

i\r. C. But there fhould be. fome 
yielding on both fides. 

C. Would you have us yield to 
thofe, who will not bend to their 
own Reafon and Confcience ? Firft 
do what you can ; otherwife we can- 
not fo much as yield that you are 
throughly fincere and honeft hearted. 
And let me admonifli you of this al- 
fo; that unlefs you reform your 
felves in fuch things as I have menti- 
oned, all that can be fairly yielded 
will not do thebufinefs. For when 
you have any hope of obtaining all 
you wifli, nothing will ferve lefs than 
that. It will not content you to 
have your confciences fatisfied, but 
we muft fatisfie your Fancy too : For 
I have been informed that there was 
Z 4 fome 

344 ^ Continuation of 

mlwai- ^^^^ inclination even in^ueenElr 
fe|ham zaheths days , to remove the Cere- 
Knewftubs monics of the Crofs , Surplifs and 
JttoDrf^ kneeling, ifthat would give content. 
johnBurgesgut thofc of your peifwafion who 
were confulted with , returned this 
Anfwer ; that they muft not leave a 
hoof behind, which Anfwer, faith 
my Author, made them all the fa- 

N.C. It v^as their Confcience 
therefore that was unfatisfied. 

C. And there is nohopeoffatisfy- 
ing fuch Confciences, as ftill fay 
like ^Ufes to Pharaoh , Thus faith 
the Lord ; in every little point. No- 
thing will pleafe them , but pulling 
down all, and rearing another build- 
ing after a new model of their own ; 
or^ in their phrafe, according to the pa- 
tern in the f$JMount, 

N, C, I muft talk with you about 
that anon, if lean; but 1 hope there 
are few of thefe rigid men , now a- 
mong our Minifters. 

C Then I have told them the way 
to peace. 

AX But 

the Friendly Debate] 3^5 

N. C. But it is fuch a way I per- 
ceive as would make them only hear- 
ers of Sermons , not preachers , un- 
lefs they conform in all things. It 
would tye up their Tongues , and re- 
ftrain them from the exercife of their 
^SMiniftry : a thing they can never 

C. The ancient filenced Minifters 
before the wars, quietly fuflfered this 
reftraint : and thought they might, 
nay ought to ceafe preaching when 
they were deprived. 

A^. C. I cannot believe it. 

C. It is fo notorious, that the 
Brownifls objected this 'to them as a 
Crime , that they did acquiefce in 
the fufpenfion or deprivation of 
the Biftiops. But they were fo far 
from thinking it a fault ; that 
they juftified it to be a Vertue. 
For fo longy faid they , as the Bifhops 
fufpend and deprive according^ to the 
Laws of the land , we account of the 
ji^ion herein , as of the aU of the. 
Church ; which we may and ought to re- 
verence and yield unto : if they do other- 


34^ ^ Comimatm of 

wife ; voe have liberty given tit hy the 
Law to appeal from them. If it be 
fdidy that the Church is not to be obeyed 

A moft Grave and modeft ^^5^ '^ fufpends and de^ 

Confutation of the Errors of prtVeS US, for fuch CaufeS 

the Sea called Brownifts or ^ . '' '' r - 

Separatifts 5 agreed upon aS We tn OUr COnJctenceS 

lSf^?S„'^jSLSS'S think to h infufficknt; 
^^^^^■'rvt^^fi^l r^eanfwer : That it ties in 
Mr.Rathband i644.part.2. them to depofe that may 
ordain ; and they may (hut 
that may open. And that as he may 
with a good confcience evrecute a Mini- 
ftry by the ordination and calling of the 
Church, who is privy to himfelfof fome 
unfitnefi ( // the Church will prefihim 
to it :) fo may 'he who is privy to htmfelf 
of no fault that deferves deprivation, 
ceafe from the execution of his ^tini- 
ftry ; when he is prejfed thereunto by the 
Church. And indeed y if a guiltlefs 
perfon put out of his charge by the 
Churches ^Authority , may yet continue 
in it, what proceedings can there be a- 
gainfi guilty per foil s , who in their own 
conceits are always guiltlefs, or will at 
leaft pretend fo to he ; feeing they alfo 
will be ready alway to obje£i againfl the 


the Friendly Debate. q j.^ 

Churches Judgment, that they are cal- 
led of God J and may not therefore give^ 
over the execution of their ^liniflry at 
the will of man ? 

N. C. It is notably obferved I muft 
confcfs : I did not think they had beca 
of this mind, 

C. Your Minifters that are of any 
learning know this well enough : but 
cither are a new Brood fprung from 
a mixture of feveral Sedls , or elfe 
adl direcftly contrary to their Princi- 
ples. Say which you pleafe, it is- 
indifftrent to me : Whether do you 
think their principles are pure deri- 
ved from t\\Q anctent Non-conformift^, 
or that they have only fome of their 
Principles , mingled with others of 
the old Separatifts ? 

N. C. I am fure they cannot en- 
dure the name of thofe Separa- 

C. Why do they countenance 
their objedlions then againft their 
forefathers ; and adl more like them 
than the Non-conformifts ? 

34^ A Continuation of 

N. C. It is forgetfulnefs I believe. 
And yet, if they thought they might 
keep filence , why do they fay fo oft. 
Wo he to me if I preach not the Gofpel ? 
I Cor* 9. 1 6. and, whether it he right 
to hearken to you , more than to God, 
judge ye, Ac5l. 4. 19, 20. 

& That's a Queftion to be askt 
them , rather than me. And their 
Forefathers in Nonconformity , 
thought fuch places unskilfully al- 
ledged againft them by the Brownifis, 
and that they were nothing to the 
purpofe : their Cafe (and fo yours) 
being fo dififerent from the Apoftles. 
'' Tot firft, They that inhibited the A- 
ib. part. 2/' poftles(they are the words of thofe 
pag. 42. <^Minifl:ers concerning the laftplace) 
*^ were known and profeffcd enemies 
*' to the Gofpel. S*tfco/;^/)',the Apoftles 
'^ were charged not to teach in the 
'^ name of Chrift, nor to publifh any 
<^ part of the dodlrine of the Gofpel ; 
*' which commandment might more 
^^ hardly be yielded unto than this of 
*^ of our Bifliops , who are not only 
^^ content that the Gofpel fliouldbe 


the Friendly Debate J '349 

^^ preached, but are alfo Preachers of 
"it themfclves. Laftly, the Apo- 
'* files received not their calling and 
" Authority from men, nor by the 
^' hands of men, but immediate- 
"ly from God himfelf, and 
^'therefore might not be reftraincd 
^'or depofcd by men: whereas wc, 
'' though we exercife a fundlion 
*^ whereof God is the Author, and 
'^ are alfo called ofGod to it, yet aro 
" we called and ordained by the hand 
^^ and miniftry of men, and therefore 
'^ may by men be alfo depofed, and 
" reftrained from the exercife of our 
" Miniftry. 

N, c. They feem to fpeak with 
great judgment. 

C. Would we could but hear you 
Difcourfc now thus wifely and folid- 
ly : it would gain you great refpedt 
and make every body in love with you, 
iwhatfoever differences there were be- 
tween us. But to hear men only 
babble in Scripture language ; foig- 
norantly as if they were mere Novi- 

2|o -^ Continuation of 

ces in Chriftian Religion, and yet 
fo confidently as if they were Apo« 
files; it cannot but difguft all ratio- 
nal perfons. Befides, would not any 
man think that many of your Mini- 
fters were carried more by Humour 
than Piety, and regarded more theii 
ownintereft, than that of Religion, 
when he hears them crying out^necef/i- 
ty it laid upon us ; and wo he to us, if 
we preach not the Go^el ; and yet they 
preach it only where there is no need, 
and that with a greater breach of the 
Laws, than if they preached in other 
places ? Why do they not inftrucfl 
the countrey people, (if theymuft 
preach) where they fay the Cures 
are worft ferved ? I doubt they fee 
their condition would be Woful in- 
deed, if they preach'd the Gofpel 
there ; and therefore they fhould 
have added two words to the Apoftles 
fpeech and faid. Wo he to us, if we 
preach not the Gojpelyin LONDON. 
There is little to be got by preaching 
it to the poor Countrey folk. Thofe 
are barren places to fowthe feed in, 


the Friendly Debate] -^^ i 

and will bring forth fmall profit to 
themfelves. And fo they would do 
well to fay in plain Englifl? (and I 
fhould think them honefter men if 
they did ) Nccefjity u laid upon us : 
to tell you the truth, Wc mufi preach 
to get a living. 

N.C. I have heard them fay, that 
they have fearch't their hearts of- 

c So did the Army as I told you, 
and were never the better for that. 

A^. . And they find that they 
mean uprightly : and that it doth not 
condemn them of confulting with flejh 

I and hloud^ 
(. . 1 find that they api/hly imitate 
the Apoftles without their fpirit : and 
run about with their vpords in their 
mouths, when they leave the fenfe 
behind. As if when they want the 
things the Apoftles had, it were fome 
::omfbrt to them that they can keep 
their glorious Phirafe and Stile. Did 
:hey never confulc think you one with 
mother, what to do? 
N. c. Yes without doubt. 

C. And 

2^2 A Comimation of 

C. And what are they, I befeech 
you? Are they turned on a fudden 
into Spirits ? Have they left: the 
Body, {ince they left: our Churches ; . 
and become feparated Subftances , I 
fince they became Separatifts> I 

i\r. c. What do you mean ? 

C Nay, what do you mean, thus 
vainly to aflFedl the Apoftles phrafe, 
who intended nothing elfe, when he 
faid, ( I Gal. i6. ) that he did not 
confult with flejh and blood afiier God 
was pleafed to give him an immediate 
commiflion to preach Chrift ? but 
that he did not confer and deliberate 
with any mortal men, like himfelfi 
whether he fliould go about that work 
or no. And truly in this fenfe I 
doubt your Minifters confulted too 
much with flefh and bloody when they 
confidered whether they fliould con- 
form to theOrders of theChurch or no. 
They applied themfelvesto your hu- 
mour,and thought whether you would 
not be difpleafed to fee them do that 
which they had raflily condemned or 
flighted; and hear them preach up 


the trtrndly Debate. -i^-} 

that, which they had defiroyed. Saint 
/'W indeed ftood not upon this, and 
would not hearken to what men faid : 
but they 1 doubt had more of liis 
words than of his mind ; and fate 
liftning a great while to the voice of 
fiefli and blood about this matter. 
And I wifli they did not confuit too 
much with it about other things : and 
did not baulk difpleafing Dodlrines. 
Othcrwife, why do they not teach 
you in an honeft manner as the Old 
Non-Conformifls did: that the Anci- 
ent Church of God ufed a Form of 
Prayer and Praifes , as every body 
knowes "^ f And that our Saviour bad ^^^^^^ ^^^ 
his Difciples when they prayed to i"g»i[av rhey 
fay, Our Father, tyc, which he would p'r"vers"'^' 
never have done, if it had not been fngT4f 
lawful for us in making our Prayers ^^npturcs, 
to Cjrod, to ufe the very fame words : ons, foieim 
And that it is an abfurd and frivolous fed in^^thdr 
exception to fay, we never read that^-"''^'^'^* 
the Apoftles did ufe a prefcript form 
of Words ; For if this be fufficient 
toexcufe us from doing what God 
cxprefly commands or manifeftly 
A a per- 

jj:^ ^ Conummon of 

permits, that we never read the Apo- 
IHes or Saints did it ; then we muft 
not, orneed not Baptife in the name 
of the Father, Son and Holy Ghoft, 
becaufe we never find they ufed thofe 
words ; or that they Baptifed Infants, 
or that they prayed, or rendred ac- 
knowledgments to the Holy Ghoft, 
And farther, why do they not teach 
you that even upon extraordinary oc- 
cafions, which require great and fpe> 
cial fervency of Spirit, it is lawful! 
to ufe a Form of Words , as our 
Blefled Saviour did in his Agony 
\And£othQ Matth. 26 42. 45. "^ ? And again, not 
Sd^poin.only thofe Forms which we frame 
gal^e^fiSn ^^^ felves, but which have been com- 
&'2jodi P^^^^ "^y others ? as Solomon , they 
obferved Jehofophat , Hezekiah, all 
ufed the very words thatDavidhzd 
done before. Nay, further yet, that 
the people of God have ufed a fet 
Form of Words in extraordinary oc- 
cafions, which were appointed long 
before thofe occafions fell out. Da- 
niel £ov inftance ufed the words that 
Solomon had commended in cafe of 


the Friendly Debate] '^f^ 

Captivity^: and Ezra ufes that^P^^^ 
Form of Thankfgiving, which y,fy^. compared 
fw/^^ had appointed, fay they, to be8V47.' 
ufed after their return from Captivi- 
ty^. "And more than this, that it^V^comp! 
is lawful to ufe not onlythofe formsj^^|.^^^^55^^ 
which are in the Scripture, but fuch ^ E?ia. lu 
as in the compiling and coUecfting 
them, the Invention and fuch other 
Gifts of men are ufed. There heiti^ a 
liberty ( as the Separatifls themfelves 
heretofore confefTed ) left in the 
Church to do many things, that tend on- 
ly to the Jetting forth Gods Ordinances. 
As in preaching of the Word, and in 
thofe Prayers, which they call con- 
ceived Prayers \ the Wit, Memory, 
judgment, and fuch other humane 
gifts are lawfully and necefifarily u- 
fed. Efpecially confidering, that 
the peoples Underftanding and Me- 
mory may be better helped by that 
they are well acquainted withal, than 
by the other. And tlien, if forms 
thus devifed by men be found to be 
lawful and profitable ; what fin can 
it bc; for the Governors of the 
A a z Church 

35 6 A ConttHmtion of 

Church to command that fuch Forms 
beufed, or for us to ufe them (being 
perfwaded of their lawfulnefs ) when 
they are impofed ? Unlefs any body 
will fay, that therefore it is unlaw- 
ful for us to hear the Word, receive 
the Sacraments, believe the Trinity 
and aU other Articles of the Faith, 
becaufe we are commanded by the 
Magiftrate fo to do: Whereas in- 
deed we ought the rather to do good 
things that are agreeable to the 
Word, when we know them to be 
alfo commanded by the Chriftian 
Magiftrate. Thefe are the very 
words of your ancient Writers a- 
pubuff'g^^"^ the Bro7r;;f/?j or Separatiftsc . 
byM^-w. Let but your Minifters, notconfult- 
parti.biic ing the Peoples fancies and defires, 
ouro/f faithfully inculcate thefe Truths, 
Sit^wr"ter ^^^ indeavour to ingraft them in their 
Mr. Rich., minds: it will give a great Teftimony 

Bernards r \ - c*- - it /> • 

confutation Or their iSincerity, and 1 am lure it * 
o/sLmw ^ will go a great way to make up our 
wo1>d?Air fad Divifions. If they will not prefs 
1608.W thefe things more than any thing elfe, 
ior the prelent ; ( there being fuch 


the Friendly Debate^, 357 

great ncceffity of it ) we can give 
no other reafon of their ftUnce, but 
that they confult their ovfn inter eft , 
and are loth to leave their private 
Meetings. And then confidering 
their known and declared Principles, 
1 fliall be forced to ufe a word of one 
of their great Enemies ( though I 
proteft I am fincerely their friend ) 
and fay they are of the moft ancient 
Secflof the jiuto catacrites"^ t ^'^^ *-^* ^^Sfcu 
Self- condemn d~\ the worft of allaionof 
Se<5laries. ^^t" ^' 

i\r. c, i have heard our Minifters 
acknowledg all this ; and therefore 
what needs thus many words i 

C. Acknowledg it, man ? I would 
not only have them fay fo when they 
wereask't, (as if it were a forrowful 
Confeflfion whifpered in the Ear ; ) 
butpublifhitaloudonall occafions; 
that fo they may call back thofe flieep 
that are gone aftray by their means. 
Let every one of them, the next time 
you meet, fpeak to the people in their 
own language and fay, Corner let us 
go up out of this Bahelyund confufiov^het 
A a 3 us 

35o A Cmtimatim oj 

us return to Sion; though it he with 
weeping and Supplication, there the 
Lord dwel/eth, and there he ii truly wor- 
/hipped. For whatfoever they may 
acknowledge fometimc; the poor 
people ( whom I pitty with all my 
foul ) are ftrangely and paflionately 
poflcfled with an opinion of the fin- 
f ulnefs of being prefent at our Divine 
Service. Many of them efteem one 
of our Minifters, how well foever 
qualified and diligent in his calling, 
however blamelefs and exemplary in 
his converfation ; no better than a 
Corrupt man, a Time-ferver, a Forma^ 
lifty Popijhly affeBedy or at leaft, a 
man blinded and deceived through 
Ignorance. Nay, there are thofe 
who call theni the Sons of Perdition 
and make them men of no Confci- 
ence. Some have queftioned whe- 
ther they may marry a Conformift; 
as if they were the people of a ftrange 
God. To hear fuch a Minifter they 
look upon as a great crime : at leaft 
they think, if any other be to be 
found, they muft go to the iton-coiz- 


the Friendly Debate, 5^9 

formi({, though far the weaker man. 
And as if they thought that to be god- 
linefs in themfelves which they call 
tyranny in other men ; there are fome 
that impofc this upon their Children, 
- never to hear the Common-Prayer : 
and charge them, as I have heard, 
upon their bleffing, to obey them in 
Ithis Command. And when for very 
Ihame they cannot but acknowledg 
the gifts of fome Minifters; then 
they limit the ufe of them only to the 
information of mens Minds in the 
letter of the Scripture and difcover- 
ing grofs fins : but that they may 
convert Souls, and work Faith and 
Repentance in them, they very much 
doubt, if not flatly deny. Nay, fo 
far doth this conceit carry fome of 
them , that they will fcarce give a 
friendly countenance or falutation to 
us : and they commonly call any 
fmall company of their own party ; 
the Churchy the people of God, the 
Chriftians of fuch a town : as if we 
had no portion in Chrift, but they 
had got him wholly to themfelves. 
A a 4 Thcfc 

jtfo A Continuation of 

Thefe Humours were obferved in the 
old Separatifls ; and fince they abound 
in you alfo, there is great need to 
warn you to purgout theoldleven, 
left it be tranfmitted from generation 
to generation. 

N. c/ But though a fet Form be 
lawful , yet it is ufelefs ; becaufe 
there is no ableMinifter that needs 
one, and we ought not to provide 
Crutches for thofe that are not able, 
but rather remove them. 

C. You would fain be Governors 
I fee, not fubjeBs; and we fhould 
have fine doings if you were in the 
Throne : unlefs you were as wife and 
honeftas fome of your Predeceflbrs 
have been, who made this difcreet 
anfvver to your Exception. There 
may he good Minifters, who want the 
gift of extemporary conceptions of Pray- 
er ; and by confe que nee need a For m.¥ or 
pr'aorfsS^-^"^^'^ fetting down the requifites 
Licenfed by to a Bifliop (faith Mr. Geree"^ ) i Tim, 

Mr. Cran-- rt^- - i - - 

tordandde- 3. I lit, neither names nor intimates 
Mrffuch? this for one of them. And where 
capei An. j-j^g Sciipture fpeaks of Minifterial 


the Friendly Debate] 3 (5 1 

gifts given to the edification of the 
Church ; this gift of prayer is never 
mentioned. * Tell nae then,if a man • i corinth. 
have all that St. Fanl requires in a 'C^.^l'^'lj. 
Bifliop, and yet wants this gift, is8-£phef:4. 
healawfulMinifterofthe Gofpel or 
not ? No doubt there are fuch, who 
cannot exprefs themfelves without 
confufion, or to the edification of 
others without the help of a Form : 
And experience tells us very excel- 
lent men have conftantly tyed them- 
felves to it. As Dr. Taylor a couragi- 
ous witnefs to the Truth, ufcd the 
Communion Book even in private 
when he was in Prifon,and bequeathed 
it as a Legacy to his Wife. He in- 
ftancesalfo in Vr.Sihs andMr.i///- 
der(ham who ufcd conftantly one 
form of prayer before their Sermons. 
And I find indeed the twolaft Ser-^ 
monsof the Dodlor fent abroad byjohnT.put 
two eminent men wich that Prayer ^h^cwd: 
before them '^. winandMr. 

■Plulip Nye 
and dedicated ro my Lord of Warwick. Bv which you may fee the A 0= 
fembly were much out of die way, when tliey told \ ou, the Lord Jefus 
flirniflies all thofe whom he calls to the Miniftry \yith this gift of Prayer. 
Or elfethefe men were among the icile and unedifying Min'iftry who did 
not put forth theniilelves to e'Jcercifc theif gift. Preface' to the Dirctflory. 

N. c. I 

3^2 A Contimatm of 

iV. c 1 have many things to {^y 
about Forms of Prayer, and yours in 
particular; cfpecially about the im- 
pofing them; if you have the pati- ( 
enee to hear me. 

C. With all my heart : Onlycon- 
tra<3: what you have to fay, becaufe 
I have fome bufinefs ftayes for 

N, C. You have (cen a Book I per- 
ceive which hinders feveral perfons, 
I am told, from joyning with you ; 
and they think itunanfwerable. 
C, What Goliah fliould that be ? 
N c. It is called. Common Prayer- 
Book Devotions, Epifcopal Delufions, 
Or the Second Death of the Service 

c\ A terrible, Giant-like Title. 
N. c.The preface too, which feems 
to call your Minifters the Sons of Per- 
dition, as you juft now noted. 

C, O, i remember now ; it is faid 
by his Friends to be writ by Mr. J. 
Goodwin \ and printed in the wonder- 
ful year 1666. when they thought to 
fee us tumble down with a powder. 


the Friendly Debate. '5^3 

N. C, It is full of his peculiar phra- 
fes, and therefore , 

C I ap not concern'd at all who 
was the Author : Let's confider 
what he fayes. 1 took it ro be a piece 
fo foul and fcurrilous; nay fo pro- 
phaneandblafphemousagainft thofe 
Devotions wherein fo many thou- 
fand Souls offer up themfelves to 
God ; that I never expedled to hear 
you name it without abhorrence. 

N. C. You pafs a very hard fen- 
tence on it. 

C. If you had read the two firft 
leaves ferioufly, you would not fay 
fo. Where, as if he imagined him- 
fclFmaTemif 'Court: when he chanc't 
to peep into a Church, he rudely calls 
the Minifters and Peoples anfwering 
one another, Bandying and toffing vf 
Devotions too and again ( a witty 
exprefllon you think, but borrowed 
alas, as the reft of his Book, from 
the Railers that were before him "^ ) *itisas old 
Nay, his fancy ftept immediately nwnitionin 
from thence into an Ale-houfe ; and bc'th^^mie, 
he tells us that thefe Dezotions, much 


154 "^ Continuation oj 

^ refemhle the jolly Scene of a fet of Ale 
inffired comp anions y chanting their 
drunken Catches upon a Bench, Which 
isfucha leud and impious Scoff at 
the Devotions infpired by the Holy- 
Ghoft ( which directed the Antient 

-»» Exod.i.^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^ anfwer one another *'^) 

ai.isRev.s'that, to fpeak in Mr. J, Goodwins 

phrafe, he mufl: be the firft born of 

prophanefs, who can deliberately 

commend fuch writings. 

N. C. But what do you fay to the 
reft of the Book. 

C. I fay he was in fuch a choller 

when he writ it, that he minded not 

what he faid. Do but read thofe 

words in the fecond page, and tell 

me your judgment. Ihe Liturgy «■ 

he?poft-^^^^^^9' ^ of things no more jit to be 

^J^^^^"^^^^^ moulded together into the fame Body 

is, when cf Evangelical Worfhip, than an Ox and 

this would Ary 1 r i i i / 

have been an Jjs to be yoked together, under the 
fufficient. jr^^^^ yf^^ fervice in the fame Plough : 

Canonicals and Apocryphals ; the liea- 
uenlyfayingsofChrift and the fabulous 
reports of Tobit ; the Pfalms of David, 
and the Song 0/5. A mbrofe, Magnificat 
and Quicunque volte A^ C I 

the Friendly Debate [ 3 5 j' 

N. C. 1 remember the words. 

C And would not anybody think 
that, according to this triumphant 
writer. Magnificat (the fong of the 
blefled Virgin ) was no more Divine 
than the ftory of lohit and the Dog ? 
elfe it fliould not have been fpt in op- 
pofition to the Pfalms of David, like 
an Afs againft an Ox , and as a thing 
unmeet to accompany the Scriptures 
in the fervice of God. Behold to 
what folly he was betray'd by his heat 
and paflion ! which made him like a 
t*tging wave of the Sea foaming out his 
onnfhame ; and moved him to befpat-; 
ter all things in the Common-Pray- 
er-book, even the holy Word of God 
it felf. 

N. C. This is very Arrange : me- 
thinks he fliould have took more 


C. Not at all. For he knew he 
had a company of credulous follow- 
ers, that would lick up his vomit, 
and digeft any thing that he faid. It 
were eafie 1 doubt not to teach many 
of them to rail upon Magnificat, or 


'^66 A Continuation of 

Nunc Dimhtisy as if they were but 
certain Drunken Catches. 

N C, You are too fevere. 

C. 1 abhor Icverity where gentle- 
nefs is the proper cure. But St. Paul 
tells titus that unruly , and vain tal- 
kers y and deceivers muft be rehuked 
Jharplyy iTit. 15. And there needs no 
other witnefs that there are fucha* 
mong thctn(vphofe mouths muft beftopt) 
than the Preface to the Book : a con- 
fident Ignoramus ; who ftruts as if he 
were fome great man , and makes a 
ratling with his bigg words as if he 
^had fome mighty matter to tell us ; 
but in efFecft hath juft nothing, ex- 
cept two or three grofs and palpable 
falflioods , of which I will make him 
afham'd if he have not a very brazen 

N, C. Do you think he would lye 
for Chrift ? 

G. I think he is a bold and vain 
talker of things he underftands not : 
what more , do you judge when you 
have heard what I have to fay. If the 
Book was writ by the perfon before 


ihf Friendly Debate] ^^j 

nam*d,as his Difciples affirm,then he 
tells us one Notorious tale when he 
faith , Tke Juthor ended his dayes in a 
kind of Exile , for adhering to this 
truth, defended in his Book, viz. Thaf 
nothing ought to be impofed in the wor- 
/hip of God. For it's well known by 
all that underftand any thing of our 
aflfairs, that Mr. J. Goodwin fuffered 
no banilhment of any kind ; but was 
difabled from his office ( though 
there had been no Common-Prayer) 
for intermedling fo much in* the late 
Civil quarrels, and writing a Book 
to juftifie the horrid murder of our 
late Soveraign. But to let him pafs. 
He asks us , you remember , Where 
were more learned y more gold ly men in 
the World , than Cartwright, Parker, 
Reynolds , Greenham , Ames ? And 
who knoweth not that thefe and many 
! more of the fame heavenly fl amp, fuffe- 
red extream Perfecution , Deprivati- 
ons and Banifl^ments , rather than they 
would touch with the Graven Image Sp 
the work of the Cr^ftimen , that then 
werci and now are n the fnares aud nets 


3d8 A Continuation of 

upon Mifpeh and Tabor ? 

iVi c. I remember them very well. 

C. And is he not an abominable 
reviler in reproaching us with Idola- 
try , and the worfhipping of Graven 
Images ? 

N^C. But where are the Falf- 
hoods ? 

C* Is that none think you? But 
thofe I now intend are , that he 
makes thofe men againft a ftinted 
form of worfliip who were for it ; and 
to fuffer extream perfecution on 
that account who fuffered none at 
all, much lefs Banifhment. Other 
untruths there are, but thefe are 
fufficient to make him blufh , if he 
have any of that vertuous colour 

N. C. Was not Cartwright of his 

c. No. For he declared his mean- 
ing was not to difallow of a prefcript 
form of Prayer y and an uniform Order 
in the Church. His quarrel was on- 
ly with fome things in our Service- 
Book. But yet he profefled he did 


the Friendly Debate. ^^p 

not oppofe the Ceremonies as Amply 
unlawful , but only as inconvenient. 
And therefore perfWaded the Preach- 
ers rather to wear the Surplifs thaa 
ceafe their Miniftry, and the people 
to receive the Sacrament kneeling, 
if they could not have it otherwayes : 
becaufe though thatgefture was, as 
he conceived , incommodious , yet 
not (imply unlawful. All which 
and a great deal more I will prove out 
of his own works and other good Au- 
thors, if it be contradit5led ; as alfo 
that he loft his Profeflbrs place at 
Cambridge upon other accounts, and 
after all went to Warwick where he 
was born , and dyed in the difcharge 
of his Office as their Minifter. And 
"iAr.Edwards I remember tells us that 
he citing a paflage out of Mr. Cart- 
wrights Comments on the Proverbs y 
in a Sermon he preached a little be- 
fore the wars to perfwade the people 
to take heed of the WhiteDevil,\\z.the 
fe par at ionupon greater pretence of Pa- 
rity ; Mr* John Goodwin came to him 
when he had done , and gave him 
B b great 

V-n o A ContinmHon of 

great thanks for it. As for Mr. Far- 
ker, he indeed went further and faid 
the Ceremonies were unlawful either 
tobeimpofed, orufed. But he was 
far from being fo great a SchoUar as 
this man fancies ; at leaft his learn- 
ing was not well digefted, For ta- 
king upon him to maintain that 
Fopijh Idolatry is every whit as 
bad as Pagan , he brings a paf- 
fage out of Saint jfuftin to juftific 
this, that a Heretick is worfe than a 
Pagan, Which are the words of a- 
nother man, whom St. Auftin in that 
place confutes , and asks him by 
what rule he concluded this, feeing 
our Lord faid , if he hear not the 
Church let him be to thee as an ilea- 
then, not worfe than an Heathen. By 
which you may fee how forward men 
of this fpirlt are , to catch at any 
thing that may feem to favour their 
Opinions , and to make a fliew of 
learning when they think it will 
ferve then^ , though they flight and 
undervalue it as a carnal weapon, 
when it is in their Adverfaries hands. 


the Friendly Debate^. 3 -7 

And if I thought this man under- 
flood him, 1 fhould imagine he had 
learnt oiyii.Parker to magnifie thofe 
of his own party beyond their de- 
ferts : For he extols the refufing of 
conformity as fuch a fingular piece 
of fervice done to God, that he com- 
pares fuch perfons as were therefore 
deprived, to Davids Worthies, and 
the three hundred men that followed 
Gideon. Moft bfave flourilhes ! 
How can you chufe but yield your 
felf captive to fuch champions', be- 
lieving this Prefacer upon his word> 
that thofe he Mufters up were in the 
number of the Worthies, But he be* 
lies Mr. Greenham too ; as I am able 
to prove from good Teftimony , even 
from himfelf But for brevities fake 
I {hall only let you know that Dr. ^^ 
Burges aflures us , that on his own 
knowledge and in his hearing, Mr, 
Greenham denied to perfwade any 
man againft the ufe of the Ceremo- 
nies; and profefled he would be loth 
to be put to the folution of this Ob ^ 
jecftion (n^s he called it) wear the Sur- 
Bb 2 fltfs, 

Wn2 A Continuation of 

plifs , or preach not. Which is an 
argument that though he did not 
like them , yet he did not hold them j 
unlawful , much lefs Idolatrous, as 
this Ignorant Writer would per- 
fwade us. 1 can prove alfo that he 
abufes Dr. 'jimes , but that I make 
haft to tell you , the moft palpable 
forgery of all , is the putting Dr. 
Keynolds into the Catalogue of his 
^jkighty Men. 'And fince he pre- 
tends to underftand Latine, I will 
fend him for his more full convi(5lion 
to an Author no lefs learned than 
that excellent Dodlor, and a far 
better Schollar than any of the reft ; 
and that is Dr. Rich. Crackanthorp, 
who tells the Archbifliop of Spalato 
that the Doiflor was no Puritan ( as 
Defenf. Ec« "^e Called him) but he himfelf a Calu- 
AngUcan^ ^^^^^^or. For firff, he profefiTed that 
&c.cap.69. he appeared unwillingly inthecaufe 
An?*i62s*. at Hampton Court , and merely in o- 
bedience to the Kings command. And 
then , he fpake not one word there 
againft the Hierarchy. Nay, he ac- 
knowledged it to be confonant to the 


I the Friendly Debate. 373 

word of God, in his conference with 
Hart, And in an Anfwer to Sanders 
his Book, o£ tht Schffm of Erjj^lajul; 
(which is in the Archbifhops Libra- 
ry) he profefles that he approves of 
the Book of Corjfe era ting and ordering 
Bifhops , Priefts and Deacons, He 
was a ftridl obferveralfo of all the 
Orders of the Church and Llniverfi- 
ty, both in publick and his own Col- 
ledge : wearing thp Square Cap and 
Surplifs, Kneeling at the Sacrament, 
and he himfelf connmemorating their 
Benefadlors at the times their Sta- 
tutes appointed , and reading that 
Chapter out of Ecclepafticas , which 
is on fuch occafionsufed. In a let- 
ter alfo of his to Archbifliop Ban- 
croft (then in 'Dr. Crackanthorps hands) 
he profefles himfelf conformable to 
the Church of England willingly and 
from hif heart , his Confcience ad- 
monifliing him fo to be. And thus 
he remained perfwaded to his laft 
breath ; defiring to receive jibfoluti- 
on according to the manner prefcrib- 
edinour Liturgy, when he lay on 
Bb 3 his 

2 HA ^A ContimaHon of 

his Death-Bed. Which he did from 
Dr. Holland the Kings Profeflbr in 
Oxford ; kifling his hand in token of 
his Love &Joy,and within a few hours 
after refigned up his Soul to God. 
What think you now ; was Dr. Rey- 
mlds one of thofe that abominated 
our Worfhip, fufiFered extream per- 
fecution , deprivation and hanijhment 
too ? Or muft he that lately flood a- 
mong the moji karned and godly men 
in the world , be now blotted out, 
and put in the black lift of Idolaters 
md touchers with Graven Images i 
What fay you ? Will you never fee 
how thefe men deceive you ? Muft 
the moft knowing men on our fide, 
that report things to us from folid 
teftimony , be thought lyars ; and 
thefe impudent fots be believed on 
their bare word ? 

N. C. I am convinced he under^ 
flood nothing of thefe matters. 

C, And yet he writes like a Tea- 
cher ; though I believe he never flu- 
died their own writers about thefe 
poiiits. If he had ; the fijenced Mi- 


the tnenaiy Uebate . 375 

nifters in thofe days would have 
taught him a great part of what I 
have faid» For they have told us ia 
Print, ^ t\i^t^lofi of thofe ^/^^''^/*- * chriitian 
fters appointed to fpeak for them at [^i;:'^^^^^,^;^ 
Hampton Court , were not of their call it) of 

I r TIT • • /v I tiie lilenced 

chujwgy or Nomination , or Judgment M,niftors,m 
in the matters then in queilion ; but c'aji'foranS 
of a clear contrary. For being intrea- J^^^j^^^'^pJJ; ^ 
ted at that time to difpute againfti6o6.* 
thofe things asfimplyevilandfucha^ 
could not he yielded to without fin, they 
profefled to them, they were not fo 
perfwaded , and therefore could not 
do fo. And being then requefted to let 
his Majefty underftand, that fome of 
their Brethren were further perfwad- 
ed touching the unlawfulnefs of thofe 
things than themfelves, they refufed 
that alfo. Now I would fain know of 
this Epiftler, whether he do not think 
Dr. Reynolds was one of thofe Mofi ? 
and whether he do not fee that fuch 
men as he were afhamed the King 
(houldknow, that any of theNon- 
conformifts ( to whom they wiflit 
well ) were fo weak as to call 
Bb 4 the 

3 7 6^ A Continuation of 

the things in difference limply e- 

N.C. 1 think you had beft dif- 
mifs this man. What fay you to 
the Arguments in the Book it 
felf ? 

C. Where fliall we find them? 
There are ftrains of railing Rheto- 
rick , ill applied fimilitudes (which 
are the common way of deceiving) 
abufed Scriptures ; loofe inconse- 
quent reafonings ; in a word , no 
arguments, that do not prove a great 
deal too much. 

J\r.G. Methinks there is fome- 
thing in that, p. 4. That it is impoffi- 
lie for a man to keep up his heart fo 
much as in a toller able poflure of Devo- 
tion y reverence and attention to fuch 
Prayers, as having heenfrar/id hy men^ 
and thofe no more excellent than their 
neighbours , are grovpn familiar to us, 
und can he [aid by roat beforehand, vre 
having heard them a thoufand times 

C. Nothing at all. For by whom 
^re their prayers framed ? Are they 


the Friendly Debate] 377 

Angels or glorified Saints in the 
Church Triumphant, that muft not 
have the name of Men f Or dare they 
fay the Spirit frames them ? And do 
they not repeat for ever the fame 
phrafes, only not put together al- 
ways in the fame Order f How many 
thoufand times have you heard them 
beg, that they might prize Chrifi 
more, and Ordiuances more, and Sab- 
baths more , and a number of fuch 
like things as thefe ? And befides all 
this , what fay you to the Pfalms of 
David? Could no man anciently 
joyn devoutely in finging them , be- 
caufe they were fo often repeated, 
and fo well known that the Jews had 
them by heart ? 

MC. I cannot tell; But God him- 
felf, he faith, judges it necejfary to con- 
fiilt his glory ( I mean a Religious awe, 
reverence and efleem to his counfels and 
works from men) by concealing the one 
and the other , till the time of their 
bringing forth , that fo they may come 
frefh and new to them. What fay you 
to that ? 


S -78 -^ Continuation oj 

a I fay he doth not write fenfe, 
for iri?as if he had told us, that God 
doth not reveal his Counfels , till he 
reveal them. 

J\f,Q But you may guefs at his 
meaning; that God keeps fecret 
what he intends to do, till he bring it 
to pafs. 

C. That's falfe. For he foretold 
many things by the Prophets. But 
were it altogether true ; it's nothing 
to the purpofe. For though he fur- 
prifes us fometimes with events 
we never thought of, and could 
not foiefee ; and will not al- 
ways let us know what he intends to 
do : yet he doth not judge it necefla- 
ry to conceal his will , concerning 
that which we are to do. No ; quite 
contrary. He judges it neceflary to 
declare it, and hath made no new De- 
claration fince the Apoftles times. 
And yet we may have a Religious re- 
verence, fure, to his Counfels re- 
vealed in his word, though they come 
not frefli and new to us. If we can- 
not; all that 1 have to fay is, that 


the Friendly Debate. '^ng 

then the fame Exception lyes a- 
gainft therriy which you bring againft 
the Common -Prayer, Nor are your 
own Prayers fo Frelh and new as he 
pretends ; but we know beforehand 
the moft you have to fay ; only you 
have fome new invented words and 
phrafes which fometimes give usjuft 

N. C. Doth not our Saviour fay, 
M^^. 13.52. that every Scrihe y every 
Teacher , inJiruBed to the kingdom of 
heaven, i.e, meetly qualified for the 
work of the Miniftry of the Gofpel, 
is like to a man that brings forth out of 
his Treafures , things new and old ? 

C. What of all that? 

A^. C. Doubt lefs our Saviour fpoks 
it upon this jiccount , as he tells 

C Doubtlefs he was full of fancy 
(as well as the reft of his Brethren) 
which laid hold of every thing with- 
out any rcafon, if itwouldbutmiake 
a fliew , and ferve to countenance 
their wild opinions. Elfe he would 
have eafily feen that our Lord fpcaks 


ngo A Cmtinmion of 

of his Apoftles and Evangelifts, who 
were furnifh'd with abilities to pro- 
pagate the Gofpel , both by their 
knowledge in the Old Revelations in 
the ancient Scriptures , and in the 
new, which he made unto them. 

iNT. C. But the Liturgy fmells rank 
of the Popi/h ^SMafs-Book which alone 
is fufficient to make it the ahharing of 
their fouls that underfland any thing of 
thefeverity of the Divine jealoujie ,8cc. 

C. The old N. C were not afFrigh- 
ted with fuch terrible Nothings as 
thefe. But told our Englifh Dona- 
iifis (the Brownifis) who objected 
this : That it was more proper to fay the 
Mafs-Book was added to our Common- 
prayer than that our Common-Prayer 
was taken out of the M^fs-Book, For 
moft things in our Common-Prayer 
were to be found in the Liturgies of 
the Church , long before this Mafs- 
Book, you talk of, was heard of in 
the world. TheMafs was patched 
up by degrees and added to the Li- 
turgies or the Church; now one 


the Friendly Debate^, '5 8 1 

peicc , then another. And if a true 
man may challenge his goods where- 
foever he finds them , which the thief 
hath drawn into his Den ; then the 
Church of God may lawfully lay 
claim to thofe holy things which the 
Church of Rome hath uTurped , and 
fnatch them away from among the 
trafli wherewith they are mingled. A 
great deal more to the fame purpofe 
you may find in Mr. John B^fl'^^which ^ 
I cannot now ftand to tell you. The Lif iyS.^° 
fum is this; "That Popery is ^tctibfj^'^l^' 
*' or Leprofie that cleaves to the M'^- v^ 
*' Church. It moftly ftands in erro- ' ^^^'^* 
" neous y faulty , grofs and abomi- 
" nable fuperftrudtures upon the 
^^ true Foundation , whereby they 
*'poyfon, or overthrow the founda- 
" tion it felf But take away the 
" fuperftrudlures and the foundati- 
'^'on remains : remove the leprofie 
'^ and the man is found. 

N". c. You talk of Liturgies in the 
ancient Church : we read of none in 
the Apoftles time. 

C True 

n22 A Continuation of 

C. True : But as the fame perfon 
2*^^*Pf^^- ingenioufly confcfles, "^"^ they might 
be, though we read nothing of them. 
For the Apoftles have not fet down 
a Catalogue of all and every particu- 
lar Order that was in the Church. 
However, afetformof Pmyer to be 
ufedin publick meetings is not un- 
lawful, becaufe it is of the number 
of things which God hath not deter- 
mined in his Word, '^c, jind as to 
call that Holy which God hath not com- 
mand ed is Super flit ions y fo it is errone- 
ous to condemn that as unholy or pro- 
phane which God allows, or is confonant 
to his Wordy though not precifely com- 

N, C. It is a common opinion that 
Liturgy is a novel Invention in the 
dayes of blindnefs and lazinefs, in fa- 
vour of Idle and debauched Priefts. 

C. You are all as learned as the 
Prefaces to your Book. But you 
might be more truly learned if you 
would read the Author now mentioned; 
who tells you that though it's hard to 
determine the precife antiquity of 


the Friendly Debate'. '383 

ftinted Liturgies ; yet that they have 

becninufe in the Chriftian Church 

for the fpace of 1400. years if not 

above, no man can deny. And that 

they could not be invented for fuch 

ends as you imagine , becaufe the 

chief promoters of ftinted Liturgies were. 

renowned for their conftant and unwed- 

ried preaching every day in the week, 

and fometimes twice ^. The New*ib.' 

EnglandMinifters would have taught 

you more ; for all they dare fay a- 

gainft the Antiquity of Liturgies is, 

that/or about an hundred years there 

were none a : Then your Dialofue-wa- , ^ 
1111 1 "^ 1 ^ ^^^ ^ 

ker h tells you they came in; but^epiyand 

hath the impudence to add, that Mi- bout^lp^- 

nifters then grew idle and weary of b''"^P^s-2- 

taking pains. Hughes, 

AT. C. Iti^ afadthingtherejhouldhe 

fuch endlef^dij^utes : Surely if they that 

compofed the Common- Fr ay er had 

dreamt that it would create fo many 

divijjons, diflraBions, tmnults, confu- 

fions, &c. they would never have found 

either heart or hand to lift up toward 

the promoting of it. p^g.S, 


284 -^ Continuation of 

r. An admirable Argument ! As 
if he had faid , The Pen-men of Holy 
Scripture would never have writ as 
they have done ; if they had but fore- 
feen what ill ufe would be made of 
their words, what Wranglings and 
Difputes they would raife, and how 
they would be wrefted and tortured 
to a fenfe which they never thought 
of. Mull: the poflibility of an incon- 
venience that may grow , hinder us 
from doing good things ? 

M^C. No. But there is no good 
comes of this. For they who like this 
kind cfWorfhip are generally Ignorant ^ 
Prophane, Superfiitioas, Jime-ferverSy 
Fearful, Unbelievers y Haters of thofe 
that are good, Drunkards, j{dulte' 
rers, &c. 

C. I know he faith fo : and repeats 
it a little after;, th^t they aregenlrally 
if not uuiverfally perfons much efiranged 
from the life of God, ajfeBionate lovers 
cfthis prefent World* But we know 
withal that there is a vafl: number of 
Ignorant revilers, railers, lyars, falfe- 
accufers, covenant Breakers, proud 


the Friendly Dehitte. -^^j 

Cenfurers of their Brethren, uncha- 
ritable, contentious, implacablcj, 
felf-conceited , greedy fcrapers of 
wealth, b^c. Who love the other 
kind of IVorJhipy and like no Prayer^ 
but thofe of their own conceiving. 
Doth not this Argument w/tr /Irongly 
(as his phrafe is) againft fuch a 
worfliip ; artd u U not a great prefump- 
tion of the carnality of it, that it com* 
ports vpith the humours, fancies and 
Confciences of men of fuch an evil Spi- 
rit^ Ifyou like not fuchReafonings 
againft the prayers of your invention j 
let them alone when you difpute 
againft ours. But 1 itiuft tell you 
however that this man, let him be 
who he will, hath committed a moft 
hainous fin, and is prefumptuoufly 
uncharitable in judging the Generali- 
ty, tf not all, of us to be ungodly. 
We know the contrary, and are af- 
fured that there are more than one of a 
City, or two of a Tribe (as he loves to 
fpeak) that are truly confcientious, 
and ferve God in this way which he 
fo fcorns, with much fktisfac5iion 
C c and 

:585 A Continumn of 

and joy of heart. And all fober men 
I think, will look upon it as an intol- 
lerable piece of Pride in him to fay> 
thatit if hardly credible any man fear* 
ing God ( if there be any fuch among 
us ) jhould partake at any time in thif 
worjhip with any great contentment. 
This is to meafure other mens Corn 
by your own Bufliel. A piece of the 
old leven of the Scribes and Fharifees, 
or if you will, the Separatifis here in 
England before he was born : to whom 
Mr. Gyjford anfwcred then as we do 
M^!^reen.° novp"^ / It cannot be denyed but that 

groans and tears f who read the Prayer 
upon the Booky or have it oiweufe to 
fayy by heart, 

N,c. But if your prayer Book 
were as free from blemifli as Abfolom^ 
nay, if it had been compofed ^ a 
General Council oiEleB Angels ; the 
impofwg of it would be imperious Blaf- 
phemy, and the ufe of it a^ impofed? 
hafe and wretched Idolatry, 

C, Go and find fome child to 
fright with your blufteringLanguage. 


the Friendly Debate, jg-y 

iV". C. It is more than noife. For 
he tells you (pd^* ii.) that it if as 
well or 04 much the incommunicable pri- 
TJtledge or prerogative of God to pre- 
fer ihe, appoint and command hif onn 
vporjhipy a$ it is to be worjhipped, ^nd 
therefore whofoever /hall authoritatively 
under any penalties command any Form, 
Model, Method or Manner of Divine 
Worjhip makes himfelfGod ; and vphofo- 
everfubmitstofuchWor/hipuan Idola- 
ter, hecdufe he gives that honour to a 
creature tvhich is due to God alone. 
What have you to fay againft this 
Argument ? 

c. I fay that as no body doubts but 
God, who is above all, hath a right 
to appoint his ojvn Worjhip, fo it is 
as certain that he hath not appointed 
any model of Worjhip or form of words 
to be ufed in Prayer and none clfe* 
Nor hath he told us that he will n^Dt: 
bewor/hippedbyafet Fonii, or that 
we muft vary our words and phrafcs, ; 
and conceal what we have to fay to him 
till we bring it forth. And therefore I 
fay he hath left it to ourfober and 
C c Z Reli- 

388 A Continuation of 

Religious Reafon to determine after 
what manner thatworfliip which he 
requires may be beft performed. And 
if not to every mans reafon (which 
would be abfurd ) then thofe who 
govern the reft are toconfider how 
chriftian Societies when they meet 
together may moft folemnly pray in 
the name of our Lord Jefus for fuch 
things as arc according to Gods will ; 
and give thanks alfo to God the Fa- 
ther thorough him. And confe- 
quently it is no incommunicable pre- 
rogative to appoint a Form or Order 
of Divine Worlhip, fince God hath 
not appointed one himfelf, and yet 
muft not be worfliipped diforderly. 
And if it maybe appointed, then it 
may be appointed under penalties, 
to keep men from wanton contempt 
of the publick Reafon. Mr. J. G. 
you remember compofed a hymn to 
be fung on a day of Thanksgiving in 
his Congregation. This was a form, 
and authoritatively impofedjelfe every 
one there might have brought forth 
his hymn and put all into confufion: 


thf Friendly Debate] 389. 

which if they had done they might 
juftly have been cenfured by him,if he 
had had any power. Now I would fain 
know why the Magiftrate may not 
prefcribe the Song of 55t. Amhrofe or 
any other godly Hymn to be fung by 
all Congregations committed to his 
charge; as well as one Minifter pre- 
fcribe an hymn to his particular Con- 
gregation? and why the Magiftrate 
may not ufe all his power and punifli 
as he fees caufe ; as well as fuch a 
Minifter ufe all his (who could only 
reprove) in cafe of contempt? I 
would know alfo how this Author 
could excufe the whole Ghriftian 
World from being Idolaters, you 
Presbyterians not excepted, if his 
Docflrine be true. For the Parlia- 
ment prefcribed the DireBory, and 
that not without penalties, as a mo- 
del or manner of Divine Worfhip : and 
fo they ufurped the place of God ; and 
youv^ho fubmittcdto their orders, v 
Worfljipped the creature and .faid con- *~ 
ftruc5lively and in effe^il ( if he reafo.i) 
right ) to the Parliament, thou art 
C c 5 my 

3 p o A Comimation of 

my God, or [ acknowledg and own thee 
for my God, 

JSf.C. I remember the words, 
pag. 12. 

c. And what would have become 
of you, if after this dreadful fentence, 
he had not in an extraordinary fit 
of good nature revoked it; and al- 
lowed the ufe of a prefcribed form ? 
For though he fay that conceived pray- 
er, for the nature and kind of it, is that 
very w or/hip which God Commands, 
Yet, as he doth not prove it, fo he 
affirms it not confidently, without 
thi$ reftrid:ion ; atleafito thofethat 
are, or hy the ufe of means may he, ca- 
pable of it, p. -^o. Very kindly faid, 
I perceive this gift then of conceiving 
prayer is but natural, and no divine 
infpiration : and where nature is not 
ready in its conceptions, it may be 
relieved by the help of Art : and 
fome may be uncapable of it, whatfo- 
ever means they ufe to acquire this 
gift. And confequently conceived 
prayer is not the Worfhip which for 
the nature and kind of it, God com- 
mands ; 

the friendly Debate: 3p'l 

mands ; becaufe he doth not com- 
mand impoflible things : but another 
manner of Worfhip byaconftant 
form may be ufed ; nay impofed too 
when a Magiftrate judges it needful, 
and (cQS that thofe who are moft zea- 
lous for conceived Prayers alone, 
have generally leaft abilities to con- 
ceive aright. In fliort he grants, p, f 5*. 
th?itfiinted forms of Prayer in them- 
felves, unto fome men y and under fame 
circumfiances may be lawful: He might 
as well have faid needful for I fuppofe 
he thought them lawful, in cafe men 
could not conceive prayers them- 
felves, as they ought. And then why 
may not the circumftances be fuch 
that they may be needful toalh^ at 
leaft at fome times, when men of 
the readieft inventions are indifpo- 
fed? And mark I befcech you how 
timoroufly he begins to fpeak after 
all his vapouring, when he tells us 
We fl?all hardly find in the Script urCf 
e^ecially in the New Tefiament, ths. 
fame Prayer ufed by the fame perfon the. 
fecond time, \t feems we may find it, 
G c 4 - if 

3?2 "^A Continuation of 

if we will but take the pains. But tg 
fave us a labour he prefently remem- 
bers, that Chrilt prayed the fame 
words a fecond and third time : which 
he excufes thus ; by the fame words 
we are to underftand the fame in 
fenfe, matter and import, but not in 
found, letters orfyllables. How he 
came to know this I cannot tell: for 
my pait 1 believe our Saviour was not 
concerned about new words when he 
had the fame thing to fay again. But 
the like peremptory conclufion he 
makes concerning all the exhortati- 
ons to prayer delivered by Chrift or 
hiS Apoftles : which he faith were in- 
tended only of that kind of prayer 
which the Saints were to conceive 
and indite ly the help of the Spirit ^ 
which they who believed did receive. 
Tocountenance this he cites a great 
many Scriptures, and tells us that 
thofe places ( at leaft the mioft of 
them) cannot be underftood of the 
Miraculous gifts of the Holy Ghofl, 
tS'c, which is fonotroriouflyfalfe that 
I wonder hp had the confidence to^ 


the Friendly Debate^. 3 9 j 

affirm it. The firfi is Joh, 7. 59. the 
fiext, AB. 5*. 32. which no man I think 
before him ever undcrftood othcrwife 
than of the extraordinary gifts be- 
ftow'd on the day of Pcntecott. And 
of fuch gifts the Apoftle fpeaks in the 
S.Rom.f, zCor. ^. ^. Gal.-^.i. 
JLphef. I. 13. In fliort, there is but 
one place of all that hemuftersup, 
that can with any colour be drawn to 
ferve his purpofe, ^7;s. Rom.% X4>i5'' 
And yet to me there is no Senfe fo 
plain of thofe words as this ; that the 
gifts of the Holy Ghoft being a great 
Evidence of the truth of Clwiftianity, 
all they that lived accordingly, might 
be aflured of the love of God ; and 
whether they were J^wes or Gentiles 
might call God Father, though they 
obferved not the Law oiMofes, But 
1 moft marvel that he fhould alledg 
that place in i Joh.i.ij, which the 
Brownijfs, 1 remember, were wont to 
cite ( and with more Ihew of reafon ) 
to prove that every Saint had the Ho- 
ly Spirit to open to them, and lead 
them into every truth. To vyhich if 


^p A A Cominmion of 

you pleafe you fliall hear what the 
Old NoHconformift replyed. 

N. c. I had rather hear what you 
can reply to the Scriptures which he 
brings to prove, that therefore God 
abomindtes a vporjhip or a form and man- 
per ofWorJkipf hecaufe he hath not com- 
manded it. Though the Worfhip 
were in its own nature abominable, 
yet he takes no notice of that ; but 
only of its not being commanded, which 
as align the provocation lyes there. 

c. 1 remember the places very 
well ; and remember withal that this 
is a miferable old argument which 
hath been anfwercd many a time be- 
fore he fet pen to Paper. And it hath 
been proved with plain Evidence, that 
the meaning of the words , Tvhich I 
commanded not, is as much as, which 
I forbad : as he had exprefly their of- 
fering their children to Molock, of 
which he fpeaks in that 7. Jer. 3 i. So 
when it's faid that they offer'd ftrange 
fire vphich the Lord commanded not. 
Lev, 10. I. all conclude that lefs is . 



the Friendly Debcit?. 39^ 

/aid and more undcrftood, viz. that 
the Lord had forbidden it. Mr. Ain- 
[worth himfclt cannot deny it, who 
yet makes the fame ufc of this phrafe 
fometimes that this Author doth. 
And indeed a man muft flatly contra- 
dict all reafon that oppofes this. For 
when he fpeaks of thofe that fliould 
worfhip other Gods, Sun and Moon 
which he had not commanded, Deut. 
17. 3. it is fencclefs to interpret it o- 
thcrwife than this ; v^hich he had for- 
hiddett,¥oi if this was the reafon why a 
man finned in worlhipping the Moon, 
that he did it without Gods leave or 
Cpmmand ; it would fuppofe that 
God might have commanded them 
to worfhip it and ferve other Gods : 
which no body imagins. All thofe 
places therefore, which he al ledges to 
prove tliat Gods not commanding a 
thing is enough to make it unlawful, 
amount to no more but this ; that his 
forbidding a thing makes it unlaw- 

N. C. But we ought to interpret 
the Scripture according to the very 


^g6 A Continuation of 

form of the words ; and fo, that is 
unlawful which is not commanded. 

c, Juft now you were only for the 
fcnfeand the matter, not the words 
and fylkbles. But to let that pafs ; 
I have fhown you this is a falhion of 
Speech in the Qld Tefiament for a 
thing forbidden. And befides, the 
abfurdity of your Interpretation is fo 
great, tiat the wifer fort of that party 
who firft ufed this argument were 
forced afterward to forfake it: as I 
can clearly demonftrate out of Mr. 
Cartvpright, And indeed where hath 
the Lord commanded a Minifter to 
read a Text and glofs upon it ; or the 
Congregation tofing the Ffalms of 
David in Metre ? Mr. Smith can ne- 
ver be anfwered by thefe Difputers, 
who faid that the Holy Scriptures 
were not to be retained as helps be- 
fore the eyes in time of worfliip : and 
that it was unlawful to look upon a 
Book in finging Pfalms. Nor could 
they have told what to fay to that 
poor Gentleman in Warwick- fhire, who 
was fo deeply poffefled with thefe 


the Friendly Debate] '39 y 

two fancies, that we mufl not commu- 
fticatc withfinners : nor ufe any humane 
inventions in Gods Service ; that to * 

avoid the firft he fliut up himfelf and 
children in his houfe, having no meat 
but what was put in at the window j 
nor fuflfering any body to come r\ear 
them when they all layfick in great 
mifery : and to avoid the laft, he cut 
out the Contents and the Titles of every 
thing in the Bible, leaving nothing 
but the lext it felf ^. *^^^ Bali 

N. c. Doth not God fay thou (halt Anfw. to 

• / » 1 / I- • -/r y- Can. p. 138. 

neither add thereto nor dimtnifh from 

it? Peut. 12. 32. 

i C What? not add Contents, or 

Notes for the better underftanding df 

the Bible? 

N. c. Nothing to the worfliip of 

God, of which hi« own Word i^ to 

De the only rule* and n0t the leaft 

ritle to be devifed of our own. 

C, Why do you only fay to his 
Vorjhip? You learnt this of Mr. i/i^- 
vportb the old Separatift, who moft 
injuftly reflrains thofe worcJ$ to 
3ad*s Service ; ^yheieas Mofe/ fpt^s 

of . 

^pg A Contimmm of 

of every thing he had received from 

him, whether they were Statutes or 

Judgments as you may fee, v.x. In 

one word, of the whole Law, which 

was to diredl them not only in Reli- 

* D?uV?A.g^^"^ but civil Affairs *. And there- 

where 'he fore this place is as efJedlual to prove 

cStation that there may be no Law made to de- 

hisLawsr termine our civil controverfies, as 

j:j*3uiring ^[jjj^ there may be none made to order 

them not to t««Tn to 

addordi- Gods Wormip and Service. And 
Sy ofthoii then what hinders but thofe men may 
obtain their defires who told you late- 
ly, it will never be well till the Laws 
of the Lord Jefus be received alone ? 
That all ourCounfellors and Pleaders 
bring their Books of Common Law 
and beftow them as the Students of 
Curious Arts did theirs in the Apo- 
ftles time i That the Godly fend out 
their writs to fuperfede all proceed- 
ings in Weflminfier-Hall and judg all 
things in their Churches ? 

lif. c. The State will never fuffer. 
that Folly. 

C. Nor this foolifli interpretatioi 
of Scripture, I hope. The Jews 


the Friendly Debate] jpjj 

am fure ( from whom Mr. Ainfrv&rth 
borrows fo many ufcful cxpofitions) 
never thought that no particular 
Laws might be made agreeable to the 
General , and for the prefervation 
and better execution of them. For 
the Elders made many ; and impofed 
thofe commandments on the people 
as a hedge and fecurity to the Divine 
Laws; and in this they did well. All 
the fault was that in prucefs of time 
they grew too numerous, and they 
equalled the decrees of the Elders 
with the very word of God , nay 
fometimes made the Law void by 

N. C. Since you fay you are in 
haft: to be gone, Vie trouble you no 
farther about this Book : though 
there are many things behind that 
deferve confideration. 

C. I am not of that mind. He 
hath but raked to gather all the frivo- 
lous exceptions , with the filthy 
feoffs and jeers which were anfwcred 
in the days of our Forefathers : and 
arc as ealie to confute as to tell to 


[^00 A Contimation of 

Twenty, But let me tell you thi^ 
before we part with him, that Mr J. 
Goodwin was not wont to allow rea- 
fons drawn from the Jewijh Law 
(though all the lofty Rheti)rick in 
this Book be drawn from it) becaufe 
the ftate of things now is not like 
wh«t was then. He tells us for in- 
ftance in his Hagiomafiix , that 
though blafphemers, feducers to Ido- 
latry , and falfe Prophets were put 
to death by that Law, yet we have 
not the fame reafon to do fo now ; 
becaufe they might immediately con- 
fult with God in all difficult cafes 
that hapned about matters of Reli- 
gion ; but we have no fuch infallible 
dire(5lions in all cafes and cannot 
have difputes fo ended. If this Rea- 
foning be good, then this is I am fure. 
God diredled every thing about their 
Sacrifices in the Jewijh Law, and 
therefore no Rite or Ceremony was 
to be added by them , becaufe if any 
more were needful they might ftill 
repair to him : But he hath not done 
fo under the Gof^el , nor do we know 


the Friendly Debate] ^o i 

to what Prophet or Oracle to go for 
diredlion in every thing ; and there- 
fore we muft repair to Religious Pru- 
dence and difcretion. 

iY. c. I marvel he fhould fpeak 
with fo much confidence and tri- 
umph in a matter that is fo difput- 

c. It was the manner and the cu- 
ftom of the man ( if Mr. J. G. were 
the Author ) as you may be fatisfied 
if you look into his jintkav alert fme^ 
Where he tells you , Ihcre is no occa- 
sion ^ for a man to make a ft and in mat'*^^„ ^, 
ter of confcience , whether he Jhould in- 
gage on the Parliaments fide or no: no- 
thing doubtful in the cafe ; nothing to 
detain ones confcience in fufpenfe; the. 
righteoufnefs of the Caufe being as clear 
as the light , or as the Sun at noon day^ 
And to grace the bufinefs with Scrip- 
ture language, he tells you; the^ 
Caufe is like to the Larv of God itfelf 
in thefe excellent qualifications of it ; 
that it is Holyy juft and good, 

i\r. c. I never knew any man fpeafc 

with fuch aflurance in a thipg which 

Dd dl 

^ij o 2 A Continuation of 

all wife men thought at leaft doubt- 

C- Well. I put you in mind of it 
then, that you may not either won- 
der or be ftaggered when you hear 
men fpeak with fuch aflurance. For 
he ufes as big and confident words in 
another cafe , in which I am fure you 
are as confident of the contrary, viz. 
about the putting our Late Soverdign 
to death. Ihis cortclufion, faith he, 
fldnds Uke a great mountain immove- 
able ; that thejuftice and honour of the 
^hefmce of fentence again ft the late King are no 
t^T^'''' rvay impairable by this fuppofition, that 
^^^'^^^V' this prefent Parliament is not a com- 
i^)Vo.^'^\.pleatl\-leqal Parliament, "^ And in 
gain p.95. another place ; Doubtle(? never was 
cpntrover^* there an) perfon under heaven fentenced 
l^t'J^^^.^cir.'^ith death upon more equitable or 

never Was m ^ ^i- 1 ^ 

^ny age juft grounds, in refpeB of guilt and de- 
whoi? merit (a). Thus he boafts alfo, that 
Sence^ hc hath brought this Conclufion, 
more juft, 2f^^p fijQYQ j^^^ a neceffity lying on the 

<'^^^^vh^p ^^rmy to feclude many Members, into 
Mi^htover^as clcar and perfedt a light as any the 
iigh?|,,3oSun fliineth at noon-day (b). 

M a At 

the Friendly Debate. '403 

N. C' At midnight he fliould have 

c. No ; let him fay at noon-day. 
They are but words of courfe ; every 
thing , though never fo dark, is to 
him as clear as the noon-day. And 
therefore no wonder it be fo clear to 
him that we are all Idolaters ; and 
that the King in impofing the Com- 
mon-Prayer hath equalled himfelf un- 
to Gody and obtruded himfelf a^ God, 
:o be worfhipped by us as Nebuchad- 
ie:zzars Golden Image was. For he 
:old us you know in exprefs words, 
that whofoever jhall authoritatively and 
wder a penalty command any model , 
yiethod, or manner of Divine rporfhip 
be obferved by men, makes himfelf 
jody&cc. you may read it at large, p. 
£1,12. For it is as clear as the 

A" C. That fuch Books ought to 
)e burnt. 

C Imuftadd that you are all guil- 
y of too much confidence, and talk 
LS if you were intallible in your con- 

ufions. When you fee therefore 
Dd z the 

404 -^ Continuation of 

the folly of it in another,mend it in 
your felves. • And do not talk here- 
after as if all Godly men had ever 
been oi your mind : No man of a 
tender Confcience but held it unlaw- 
ful to prefcribe any thing in Gods 
worlhip. Every Body knows Cart' 
vr right y Reynolds y Greenham were of (J 
this opinion as the Prefacer boldly 
told you; and it is a wonder he didJR 
not add Di.Sibhs. For fo fome of your 
party took care the world fhould be- 
lieve ; and chofe rather to corrupt 
his writings , than have it thought he 
was of another Perfwafion. 

i\r. C. I fliall never believe it. 

C, You may chufe : But I fliall 
prove that this good mans writings 
were abufed prefently after his death 
in this very point. For in his Book 
called the Souls Confli5i , he gave this 
direction among others to guide a,y/ 
Soul in doubtful Cafes. Thehavrs }\^ 
under which ire lize are particular de-^^^ 
terminations of the Law of God) and i 
therefore ought to he a rule tons fo far 
a^ they reach, though it he too narrow)^. 

^' Pi: 


the Friendly Debate] 405 

a Rule to he good, only fo far as mans 
haw guides unto ; yet haw being the 
joynt Reafon and confent of many men 
""or publick Goody hath an ufe for the 
raiding of our jfdhons that are under 
he fame. Where it dajhes not agaiift 
lods law ; what u agreeable to haw is 
igreeable to Confcience. Thus the 
iule flood when the Book firft came 
)ut ^. But in a very fhort time af- ; ^^'^^Edi. 
er , when he was newly laid in his P^g- 3«4- 
;rave , the nrft words were changed 
n thefe; The Laws under which we 
'■ve are particular determinations of the. 
.aw of God in fame duties of the Se- 
ond Table. In which they made two 
:ftrii5tions of that which he had faid 
1 General words ; Firft, they re- 
:ram'd the Rule to the Second Table, 
id not to all things neither, buton- 
'fome duties. And then they add a 
hole Sentence, hyvis.y of Example, 
hich was not in the firft Edition: 
hich I make no doubt was done on 
irpofe, left any man who read the 
ook fliould think it was the Dolors 
'inion , that we fliould conform to 
Dd X th^ 

AQ 6 A Continmtm oj 

the Orders of our Governours about 
the worfliip of God , where the Law 
of God hath determined nothing in 
particular, and their Laws do not 
crofs his. But what is there done 
by the Jefuites worfe than this ? what 
greater injury to the dead than thus 
to play tricks with their Books, and 
change their words at your plea- 
fure i 

N.C, It is very ftrnnge. 

G I have fome thing more to tell 
you. As they have added here , fo 
they have taken away in another 
place juft before it. He isAnfwcr- 
ing I told you this Queftion, what 
courfe muft we take for guidance of 
our lives in particular atftions wherq 
in Doubts may arife, what is moft 
greeable to Gods will ? And one Ad- 
vice is this; vpe muft look to ourplaa 
wherein God hath fet us. If ire be i\ 
ftihjeBion to others, their ^Authority in 
doubtful things ought tofrvay with m. ^ 
dangerous Rule fome men thought; 
and therefore in the next Edition^ 
they left out thofe words in doubtfti 



the Friendly Debate] 407 

things. And alfo blotted out this 
whole fentence which follows ; It is 
certain we ought to obey {viz. in doubt- 
ful things of which he is fpeaking) 
and if the things wherein we are to ohey 
he uncertain to U9 ; we ought to leave 
that which is uncertain , and ftick to 
that which is certain : In this cafe we 
mufl obey thofe that are Gods under 

N.C. Are you fure of this? 

C As fure as that I fee you : 
though I muft tell you there was a 
neat device to hide this fraud ; for 
they reprinted the Book fpeedily 
with the very fame Title page that 
wasT^efore and without giving notice, 
that it was ^ifecond Edition : And by 
leaving out thofe lines ; and adding 
an example , as I told you ; to illu- 
flrrate the rule as they had reftrain'd 
it, they made the pages exacflly 
even as they were at the firft. "^ Af- * Thereare 
terward the Book was divided into ^^o Editi-. 
Chapters : and in all Editions fince one V Ul 

own , ano= 
ther of fome bodies elfe ', butfo ordered that they feem the fame. This 
J add kit I Hiould no; be underftoo d by all. 

Dd 4 you 

'408 A Continuation of 

you will find thefe Rules (Chapt. 17.) 
with thefe alterations. 

M C, By his own appointment, it 
is like. 

C. Why did they not tell us fo ? 

N. C 1 know not. 

C rie tell you then : They were 
loth to tell a plain lyeiFor the Do5ior 
dyed within three days after he had 
writ his Preface to the firft Impreffi- 
on ; and therefore it's moft likely 
made no Alterations. That Preface 
was dated July the firft 163 j. and he 
dyed July the fourth. So I gather 
from thofe who put out his two laft 
Sermons preached Junezi. and 28. 
and he dyed, fay they, the Lords day 
following. Immediately after which 
came out a tiew impYejJton of the fame 
year 1^35'. but not called afecond 
Edition : which they would have us 
believe was not till 1636. A meer 
cheat as I confidently affirm , having 
feen and compared all. 

i\r. C. I fee now you are of an im- 
pofing fpirit : and have taken a great 
deal of pains to flicw it. 

a What 

th Friendly Debate] 409 

C. What.'* Am I for impofing on 
men thofe words they never faid ? 

N,C, Be not fo perverfe. AIJ the Re- 
formed Churches are againft impo- 
fing of SetForms^as I have been told. 

C. As perverfe as I am. Tie follow 
you for once. So you have been told, 
I believe , that they are againft all 
Set Forms though not impofed : I am 
fure I have. 

N. C. No. I remember in the 
beginning of the late Wars the Scot- 
tip Formes of Prayer were printed. 

C. And fo were the French, and 
thofe of G^/7^x'^, and Guernfea , and 
the Dutch , to name no more ; all 
tranflated into Ertgli/h. Therefore 
pray fatisfie fome of your Ignorant 
but yet confident Friends in this 
matter. As for that of Impofing; 
what think you of thefe words of Mr. 
Calvin in his letter to the Protecflor, 
OSoh. 22. I5'48? ^s for Forms of 
prayer and of Rites Fcclepaflical, I do 
greatly approve that .there he a certain 
one extant , from vchich it (hall not he 
lawful for the Minifiers in theirfandlion 


]^\o A Contimatm of 

to depart y Set. For which he there 
gives fotirhfccafons. And whatfoever 
is pretended to the contrary, the Re- 
formed Churches do follow this 
Counfel , and tye men to a Form in 
the publick duties of Gods worfhip, 
as I can evidently fliew. But now 
let me only obferve that heretofore 
your Minifters thought it no light 
Argument againft the Separatifis, 
that all Reformed Churches acknow- 
ledged the Church of England as their 
lifter : and confequently did not 
think her wicked for impofing Forms 
of Prayer. So you m.ay read in the 
Book I told you of before, publifhed 
by Mr. Rathhand, p. 6. though the 
truth is thofe Miniilers have taken 
B^owaifcfthat Argument out of a Book of Mr. 
f^^^^^ Bernards "^ ; who fpeaks difcreetly 
^6o8.pag. when he faith, That though we do not 
^'^ ' make this our only or chief defence, 
wherehy wefeek to approve our [elves to 
God or the confciences of his people ;yet 
it is a thing that gives fome reputation 
to us. For even Saint Paul who re- 
ceived not his calling either from or hy 


the Friendly Debate. 4 1 1 

men, alledges for the credit of his Mi- 
niftry that three chief Jpoflles approved 
him and gave him the right hand offel- 
lowjhip. And which is more, hefeeks 
to win commendation and credit even 
to thofe Orders which he hy his Jpofio- 
licall Authority might have eflahlifh- 
ed^ hy the example and judgement ^/he^St^ i 
other Churches'^. cor.7.,7. 

N.C. Then you are jotimpofing. 33' 16.1, 
C. I am for that which all men of 
any difcrction think neceflary, -z/Zis. 
that every body fhould not be left to 
do according to their prefent humor 
and fancy > when they come towor- 
fhip God in the publick Affemblies. 
Even the famous SmeBymnuus al- 
lowed impofitions in fome cafes. For 
they propound this as an expedient, 
that, if it fliall appear any Minifter 
proves infufEcient to difcharge the 
duty of prayer in a conceived way, 
it may be impofed on him as a punifli- 
ment to ufe a fet form and no other^ , * Anfvverro 
This was indeed a contrivance to dif- RemolS^^^^ 
gtace the Liturgy as if it were fit for ftrancep.14 
no bodies ufe^but the duller & heavier 


'A Cmtimation of 

fort of People: but yet it (hews their 
judgment about impofingy which you 
now complain of. And 1 would fain 
know what they would have done with 
fuch infufHcient perfons as had a 
good opinion of their gifts; and 
thinking themfelves wrong'd in being 
condemned to the forenamed Pen- 
nance, would not obey them : Would 
they have forced them to obedience 
or no? If not; their expedient fig- 
nified nothing : If they would ; then 
why ftiould not the Magiftrate do it 
now, who knows that moft of thofe 
who love liberty, have a better opini- 
on of their own abilities than they 
ought ? 

N. C. We wifli the Common Pray- 
er was left at liberty to be ufed or not, 
as men found themfelves inclined. 

C. Do you fo ? That's becaufe 
you defpife it, and think it good for 
little or nothing. But were there one 
of your own Inventions to be eftabli- 
flied, you would never leave us at Li- 
berty, if you had power, tomakeufe 
of it or let it alone. Nothing fliould 


the Friendly Debate^. ^\ 3 

ftand in competition with it : but 
every thing elfe, as well as Common- 
Prayer, fall before it, as Dagon be- 
fore the Ark. Did not the Indepen- 
dents incur your difpleafure for crav- 
ing an allowance to order a few Chur- 
ches after their own falhion ? Mr. 
Dury)[{imk\iy 1 remember, a man of 
peace and compofer of differences re- 
folved their way was not to be toUe- 
rated. For it would lay, faid he , 
^ the foundation of ftrife and Divi lion* ^PiOiohvy 
tn the Kingdom to have two rvayes ofiu Licenied 
Church Government : which may agree cra^ord 
with fame Mat chiaviliany but no Chri-^^^y 27. 
ftian Policy, Jnd therefore it will he 
no wifdom in the State to yield to the 
Suit of the five Brethren y except it he 
induced thereunto hy the Neceffity of a- 
voiding fome greater inconvenience, 
than is the admitting of a feed of perpe- 
tual Divijion within it felf, which is in 
my apprehenfwn the greateft cf all other, 
andmofi oppofiteto the Kingdom of 
Chrift. '^ Now the lefs the caufe of 
^' reparation is,the greater is the fault 
;/ in thofe that make it, and the lefs 

^^ caufe 

AiA -A Contimation of 

^' caufe the State hath to give way to 
<* the making of it. You remember 
therefore what Ordinances were made 
for the electing of Elders : and that 
all Pariflies and places whatfoever, as 
Vfdilpriviledged and exempt juris di 511- 
ons 04 others, fliould be brought un- 
der the Government of Congregatio- 
nal, Claffical, Provincial, and Na- 
aordin.of tional Aflcmblies a. And this was 
'^'^""^^^'according to their folemn promife of 
fetling Uniformity ; which part cf the 
Covenant, they faid ( if you will be- 
lieve them ) was alwayes before their 
hovdm.\^ eyes h. In purfuance of which alfo 
^iSmble^* the City defired c that fame ftri6i and 
^^^\^^(p£sdy courfe might he taken for thefup- 
Petition, preffin^ of all private and feparated 

May 26. ^^ '^^ ^ \ ^ * j ^i tt r r 

1646. Longregaticns : And the rloule ot 
Lords ordered the Printing of their 
Petition ; which was grounded upon 
"^Decemb. a Re7nonftrance ^ of the Houfe of 
IS. 1642. (^Qj^jjrjons, *^ wherein they declared 
*•' that it was far from their purpofe or 
*^defiretolet loofethe golden rains 
^^of Difcipline and Government in 
[' the Church, or to leave private per- 

^ ^ fons 

the Friendly Debate. 415 

''forts or particular Con^^regatiom to 
*' take up what form of Divine Service 
" they pleafe. As for the facred Cove- c^ 
nanty that Holy Ordinance ( as Mr.CW/i 
calls it) and choice piece of Divine 
Service; you know no man could be 
aMinifter, or an Elder, no nor pra- 
(flifeasan Attorney or Solicitor at 
the Law, unlefs he took it: and the 
refufal of it was generally made a 
Mark of ungodlinefs ; as I will prove 
when you pleafe. 

AT. c I know not what reafons they 
went by then. 

C. The fame whereby they would 
proceed now ; if they had the fame 
power and the fame hopes. And fo 
1 believe would the Independents too: 
who are for impofing their own things 
as much as they are able. For they 
have invented, you muft know, a 
Model and form of their own heads 
which is not appointed in Holy Scrip- 
pres. As firfly that the Members 
muft be examined and give an account 
bf the manner of their converfion 
[which is in a certain Method and 


4 1 5 A Comimation of 

Narration Form too in JSlew-Er^gland) and that 
churn before the Church. Then, it is re- 
courfesin quired that they enter into a Church- 

N. England /. i . i . i /-> 

by w,R. Covenant y which is not the Covenant 
out of 'their of grace, but diftindl from it : (For 
STc^chrp'^ ^hey acknowledge a man may be 
pag.i6. within the Covenant of Grace, who 
is not in this , and one may be in 
this, who is not in that. ) And yet 
it is a Sacred not a Civil thing : which 
muft be made publick before all the 
Church, vocal and exprefs ; fo hind- 
ing that none can be loofed from it 
without the confent of the Church. 
And then it is held ( at leaft by ma- 
ny) that the Members mull: fr(?/7/?^j5',*- 
i, e, exercife their gifts in and before 
the whole Congregation, by preach- 
ing, expounding, applying the Scrip- 
ture : by inftrudlion , confutation , 
* which Reprehcnfion with all Authority ^. 
an'ordi Now having dcvifed thefe things, to 
peS^fn* name no more, I obferve that the Co- 
^^^^^P^'^lf^venantmthc fame Church is in one 
inMr. Cot- and the fame rormoi words, as well 

tons Cate- i i r 

chiiiTi. as matter; and therefore put into 
writings and muft be r^^^ by the par- 

the Friendly Debate] 417 

tyto be admitted, or he muft hear 
it read by fome other and give his Af- 
fent to it. Here is not only a Form 
of Holy Covenant ( a principle point 
of worftiip as W, R. notes ) invented 
by one or more men ; but impofed up- 
on others, even as many as enter into 
the Church ; and more than that, to 
he read upon a Book, What is this 
better, or how is it more lawful, than 
a fet form of prayer ? efpecially fince 
this Covenant is impofed as an Ordi- 
nance of Gody and ahfolutely necejfary ; 
fo as no Book-Prayer, I think, is f 
i find alfo that by this Covenant, the 
Members in fome places * were y^-*churchof 
ftrained and tyed up from A^ewing ^^^^J^^jj'^j 
their gifts in peaking or fcrupling ; 
till they were called thereto ; that is, 
they being allowed to prophefie pub- 
lickly, and fo to propound queftions 
and make objecStions ( which they call 
Scrupling^ they bound them up in 
this Covenant, which had the force of 
Law, from doing it uncall'd. I 
^^"Iwould fain know whether this be not 
'^Ito limit the Spirit (as you fpeak) 
^'" E e and 

4i8 ^ ContinuMion of 

and to ftint it to times, as you fay we 
do it to words ? For if a man be never 
fo full, he muft have no vent without 
a call from the Church. And how I 
pray you doth this difJer from an Ec- 
clefiaftical Canon, as to its force and 
obligation ; but only that it hath an- 
other name ; and all old Canons muft 
by lay'd afide, to make way for this 
new Covenant. They tell us alfo 
exprefly that the Magiftrate may 
compel men to keep their Covenant; 
nb.Narrati= though not to enter into it *. And 
courfe"^^^ for fpreading of infedliousDodlrines, 
cap. 15.' Mr. Wheelwright a Minifter, and Mrs. 
Hut chin fon a pretended prophetefs, 
were hanijhed the Countrey. Seve- 
ral of their followers alfo were fome 
imprifonedy iome fined, {omcdisfran- 
ingsofthe chifed, Cottic haniJhcd, and oil di farm- 
Simhoi- ^^> for petitioning the Court inbe- 
Tmvn,^oa! ^^^f ^f Mr. Wheelwright and remon- 
2. 1657. and ft rating with due fubmiflion ( fo 
g>inde. their words were ) that they conc«iv- 
poc'ecdi^led he defer ved no fuch cenfure^. A 
BoftJn ^^ gfc^'^t many more remarkable things 
i^i(i' ' there are in thatftory, which lean- 

the Friendly Debate] '^'l p 

not ftancj to recite. But muft pro- 
ceed to tell you, that as for others 
who are not of their way, there is juft 
no liberty at all For as they will 
not grant communion to members of 
other Churches not conftituted as 
they are ; fo if a company of approved 
godly people ftiould fit down near 
them ( where their power reaches ) 
differing from them only in fomc 
points of Church Government ; fome 
of them tell us, not only that they 
fliall not he owned as afifier Church, hut 
alfo he in danger of fevere puni(hment hy 
the Civil Magijirate b. b mmtion 

N. C. What is all this to our Inde- ^'* "?• '^• 
pendents ? 

C. They extol both the Men and 
the wayes of New-England to the 
Skyes : and therefore approve of them 
Ifuppofe, not only as good,but as ex- 
celling all other. The Men, they 
fay, have teftified their fincerity to 
all generations future by the greateft 
undertaking, except that of our Fa- 
ther Jhraham, viz, leaving this 
Countrey to go thither , merely to 
E c z wor- 

42 A Continuation of 

cApoioge- wprfliip God more purely c And as 
tiS!,^i643.T^ their wayes and praSlices, they are 
pVi' improved to a better Edition and great- 
er refinement y than thofe of other Re- 
s'*' formed Churches^, which ntiakesit 
reafonable to believe, that when they 
Covenanted to reform according to the 
example of the heft Reformed Churches, 
they had New-hngland in their eye, 
as their pattern. For thofe General 
e Beam of words,as Mr. Feak e rightly obferves, 
^z^hV'^'leftit under fufpence and undetermined 
which of the Reformed Churches had oh' 
tained the higheft degree of Reformation. 
The Scots and their Friends judged the 
Kirk of Scotland the heft Reformed ; 
the Dijfenting Brethren, approved the 
Reformation of New-England to he 
moft Excellent. But be this as it will, 
we have learn't thus much from what 
hath been related ; that the Churches 
of 0, better Edition and greater refine- 
ment, do not think it unlawful to ufe 
forms in Gods holy Ordinances ; unto 
which they hind thofe who come un- 
der their Power; y^/r^/Wf;^ themal- 
fo from opening their mouths, when 


the Friendly Debate. 4 2 I 

perhaps they think themfclvcs full of 
the Spirit ; and denying leave to o- 
thers to fet up a different way from 
theirs, in their Neighbourhood. As 
for our Independents I can /hew from 
their Books, that they think it necef- 
fary to be as fevere in a great many 
Cafes ; and I remember as heavy com- 
plaints of them, as ever they made of 
the Presbyterians : and have been told 
that they daylyjpet their venome pri- 
vately and puhlickly, again fi thofe that 
feparatedfrom them a, &c. a vanity of 

N,c. It will be too long to relateS^J/^t^^ 
all thofe things. But I would fainP-5-^«^"' 
know how this will (land with Chri- 
ftian Liberty ? 

C. Do you think that it confifts 
in being tyed to no Law at all ? 

N.c. None but Gods. 

C, Take heed what you fay. 

J\f. c. In matters of worfhip , I 

C. That's abfurd, as I have fliewn 

you. Gods Law hath only given us 

the general rules whereby things arc 

to be ordered in the Church ; accord- 

E e 3 ing 

42 i ^A Continrntion oj 

ingto which our Governors are to 
make particular Laws, and we are to 
obey them ; or elfe there will be no- 
thing but confufion. Yet ftill our 
Chrifiian Liberty remains; becaufe, 
Firft, we are not tyed to this or that 
pattern or Modelj, but our Governors 
have liberty to eftablifh whatfoever 
(being in itfelf indifferent) fhall 
feem to them moft expedient for 
maintaining comelinefs and Order. 
And fecondly, when any orders are 
cftablifhed, this is our Liberty (as 
pur Divines teach you ) that we do 
not ufe them as any part of Divine 
Worfhip ( as fome of you do ) nor 
as meritorious and fatisfadlory, nor 
as neceflary to juftification or falva- 
tion, but only for difcipUne and good 
Orders fake. And Ufily, by confe- 
quence the fame Authority may alter 
them, and hath not fo tyed up it fclf 
to them, but that it is at liberty to 
abolifli thofe, in cafe of inconveni- 
ence arifing, and eftablifli others in 
the room. But fuch a Liberty as 
leaves men loofe from all Laws and 


the Friendly Debate , 42} 

Orders, fave thofe that they fhall 
chufe themfclves, is a wild fancy 
which^(?«r Minifters condemn as well 
as ours, Mr. Duty for inftance, (a ve« 
ry moderate Presbyterian ) tells the 
Independent Brethren, We mufl ex- 
feB nofuch Liberty at Jhall break the 
Bond of Spiritual Unity, which by the 
allowance of a puhlick tolleration of a 
different Church Government, may be 
occafioned. To keep therefore Unity in- 
tire a few muft yield unto many, except 
they can fairly perfwade thofe many to 
yield to them a . a Epiftoiary 

N, c. But what if they cannot ^^'.7/5' 
agree ? 

C. I was going to tell you. If they 
cannot agree, it ujuli they floould forfeit 
their Spiritual right and liberty which 
Chrijl hath conferred upon them, and 
fall under the Arbitriment of the Secu- 
lar Power, which ought to look unto its 
own fafety, left thofe that make Diviji- 
ons and multiply Breaches in the Church 
about fmall matters, difturb alfo by that 
means the puhlick peace of the State b ► bib. 0.24- 
Of this mind alfo was Mr, John Cotton 
Ee4 (a 

424 'A Cmmmtion of 

C a mild Independent ) Good Kittys, 

^ ^P^^^^j^^ faith he c, ought fo put upon their peo- 

V. io.pag pie wholfome Laws and fir ait binding 

^' to the purity of Religion, and the Wor- 

Jhip^of God. It U no impeachment to 

their Chriftian Liberty , cu the jinabap- 

tifls dote, but an ornament to their 

beauty, making their necks comely a4 

with chains of Gold. And a little af- 

d ib.ure 3.ter d , ItU no impeachment ofChriflian 

Liberty to bow to Chrifiian Laws : Tea, 

it if the beauty of a Chriftian Church to 

wear thofe chains, thofe Laws, which 

were made for the good of the Churchy 

and it was their prophane^ and rebellion 

that fay ; Let us break their bands afun- 

der, and ca({ away their cords from us. 

M C. He fpeaks of thofe purer 
Laws which they found out, not fueh 
as yours. 

C. It's as much to my purpofe if he 
did; for it proves he would have the 
people ftriBly tyed to Laws and wear 
thefe chains alwayes about their 
necks; and our Governors think theirs 
as good as any, and fo may as inno- 
cently bind wxn fall to them, as you 

the Friendly Deflate. 4 2 y 

ty them to yours. And let me tell 
you, both Presbyterians and hdepen- 
dents would have their Orders fo 
ftricft, that their people ftiould not 
be allowed the liberty of going to hear 
where they pleafe. Mr. Edwards a , a cangr^a 
1 remember, in his Catalogue of Er- \_fZr'x^?' 
rors, Herefies and Blafphemks, puts 
down this for one. That it is part of 
mens Chriflian Liberty, not to hear their 
own Minifiers, but to go and hear where 
they willy and whom they think they may 
profit mofl by. And the New England 
Churches condemned thofe that faid b, b catalogue 
if a man think he may edify better in an- nlj^^coni* 
other Congregation than in hu own, that demn^d by 

7 ^ , , .. .t anAHembly 

U ground enough to depart ordtnartly, ofthcchur- 
from Wordy Seals, &c. notwithftanding ti^j^^rov, 
the offence of the Church, often manifeft- ^°' 
ed to him for fo doing. 

N.c. But why fhould there be any 

c. You may as well ask me over 
again, why any Laws? which will be 
ridiculous without them. But I won- 
der you are not afliamed to fpeak a- 
gainft penalties and force,who prefTed 


i^25 A Continuation of 

the Covenant with more feverity, than 
ever any body did Conformity, What 
crofncj^isthis { tis the Bifhop of Don>n 
. . faid c ) that whenweprej^ men to con- 
speech ^t form to the Orders of our Church, they 
iT^^k ^li^^g it is contrary to Chriftian Liberty 
^^38. fQ in force men to the doing of any thing 
againft,therr Confcience, and that a man 
foould he fully refolved in his own mind 
of the Lavpfulnejsofthat which he doth ; 
and yet we urge that only under pain of 
fujpenjion and excommunication, and 
that after much patience and forbear- 
ance, ufng all fair means to per fwade 
them : But they compel men tofubfcribe 
the Covenant againft their Confcience by 
Pike and Fiftol ; threatning no lefithan 
lo(i of life, or goods and Lands in cafe 
cf refufal ? By this we may judg of their 
fincerity and what they would do in other 
things, had they Tower in their hands. 
The truth is one could fcarce live a- 
rnong you when you had power ; for 
all that would not take the Covenant 
were held to be Malignant s ,^116. if you 
know not what was to be done with 
theai^an eminent perfon will tell you. 


the Friendly Debate. j^z'j 

iV. c. Who do you mean ? 

c. Do you not remember who it 
was that complemented the Parlia- 
ment as the keepers of our Vineyardy and 
commended them for being wanting 
in nothing to their duty 

N.C. What then? 

C. You (hall hear. He faith they 
had endeavoured to f<?f;c^ ^/^^ Vineyard 
with a fetled Militia, and then toga- 
t her out the Malignant s as [tones, and 
to make a Wineprefi therein for the 
fqueezing of Delinquents a 

N. C, i know not who this was. before the 

C. rie be fo civil to his Memory as the^om^^^ 
to let this pafs without naming him.^"'/^^^^;, 
But he was one of thofe you call a 
moderate Presbyterian, by which we 
may know what mind the Zealots are 
of. And as for the Independents, they 
were for an exaB and thorough Refor- 
mation too ( for that which they were 
about had coft God dear, they faid, 
and he would not lay outfo much for an 
imperfeift, poor and low reformation) 
and therefore exhorted the Parlia- 
ment not to fpare the lalli to effedt it: 


426 A Cominmtion of 

but do as Jefus Chrifl did when he 
came to purge the Temple ; not only 
chide the money changers ^ hut whip them 
away , and overthrow the "very tables, 
lefl they fhould recover their Trade a- 
EridaJser- &^^^ ^- Which othcrs delivered in 
morfbcfore fhis phrafe, Dagon is begun to fall he- 
mons, ^oy.fore the jirk ; his head is off; but let 
2X\sV'^'^ot fo much as the jium^ remain ; 1. e. 
give no liberty to thefe Church of 
England men ; let them not enjoy the 
leaft relick of their worfhip. And 
accordingly you know, I fhew'd you 
the laft time, there was an Ordinance 
prohibiting the ufe of Common-pray- 
er under great penalties in any prl- 
cp n8 ^^^^ family , not excepting the 

of Friendly Kings C . 

•^Uk! N. C. I remember it ; and fome 
• fay it was an unworthy Conftrudlion 
you make of the words ; there was 
no fuch intention. 

C. They had better have held their 
tongues, for I (hall prove it to pur- 
pofc. When Commiflloners were 
fent down to treat with his Majefty 
at the IJle of Wight, he was content,as 


the Friendly Debate] 429 

he had expreflfed himfelf before^M^y 
12. that the worfliip of God Ihouid be 
performed according to the DireBory 
for three years : provided only that 
his Majefty^and thofe of his judgment 
who could not in Confcience fub- 
mit thereunto, might not be obliged 
to it,but left free to their own way a, ^ ^j^-j^^^^ 
But this would not be granted ; for septemb. 
you muft know that though the Par- ^^' * "^ * 
liament had Ordained h ; the Chap- ^ ordin.of 
pels or places in theHoufes of thc^^^^<^»4- 
King and his Children fhould continue ' '^'^' 
free for the exercife of divine duties 
without any Elders ; yet this was no 
more than they allowed to every 
Peer in the Realm, and thofe Duties^ 
alfo rvere to he performed according to 
the DireBory, and not other wife. And 
therefore 1 find his Majefly was fain 
for the fatisfaBion of the two Houfes 
(fo his words are) to make a further 
conceffion , and to profefs he would 
not infift upon any provifion for con- 
tinuance of the ufe of the Book of 
Common -prayer in his QjM[ajefiies 
Chappel for himfelf and his houjhold : 


Qj.50 A Cominmtim of 

neverthelefs he declared he intended 
to ufe feme other fet Form of Divine 

c This was Service c But nothing would fatis- 

4. N^ovemb.|^^^ unlefs he would do according to 
the Directory ; they would not allow 
a Set Form in his own Houfe: no, 
though he declared , in a further ex- 
plication of his mind, that he could 
not with a good Confcience commu- 
nicate in a publick Form of Divine 
Service and Adminiftration of Sa- 
craments, where it is wholly uncer- 
tain what the Minifter will fay to 
God : and told them he hoped they 
would think it reafonable to offer any 
violence to the confcience of their Sove- 

a Novemb. rai^n. For in their anfwer d ; they 
tell him twice , though they would 
not force his confcience y yetdefire it 
may be informed and reilifyed, that 
fo it might agree with theirs , who 
were his great Council : that is, 
they would not call it by that name ; 
but he muft either agree to them, or 
be as he was : And fo in fine he was 

Novfl^ content to wave even a Set Form ^: 
Do you not fee now , how we were 


the Friendly Debate^. 431 

deceived by this word Liberty ; and 
that the King himfelf could have no 
benefit of itr^ Had you not a great 
care of tender Confciences, and were 
exceeding nice in prefling men to 
that wherein they were not fully fa- 
tisfied ? Certainly his Majefty had 
reafon to fay /, If it be Liberty of con- ^ ^^^^^ ^ 
fcience they defire, he who wants it y is J^n, 18.* af- 
moft ready to give it. And what donJaTckef^ 
you think of his Majefties earneft^^^' 
defire to have fome of his Chaplaines 
attend him a ? Was it not barbarous a which he 
to deliberate one moment whether itjljf^y \^^ 
ftiould be allowed or no; efpecially^^^^. 
by thofe who cryed up Liberty fo 
much ? And yet he was fain to re- 
new his Meflage to them the next 
month b y and to reprefent the necef-bj^^j^g, 
fity of it , for the guidance of his 
Confcience. But ftill they ftopt 
their eares to his dcfires ; for in his 
Anfwers to their Propofitions c , hecMayiz, { 
refpites his Anfwer to what concern- ^^'^7* 
cd the Covenant, becaufe he could 
not give a refolution in a matter of 
Confcience, till he might be afliftei 



432 A Contimatm of 

with the advice of fome of his own 

Chaplains , which had hitherto been 

denyed him. Nay, when he was at 

d Mcfl^cre f^^^^^^^o^^ ^ y I find him complaining 

of Augwo. that he had none about him (except a 

'^ * Barbar which came down with the 

Commifjioners) that he ever named to 

wait upon him. ji piece of rigor and 

harharifm greater than is ever ufed by 

Chriflians to the meaneftpr if oners and 

eicon-Bam.greatefi MalefaSlors e, &c. 

A^ C, I know the words. But what 
is this to penalties ? 

C You led me out of the way; and 
yet not altogether , for you may fee 
by this that Chriftian Liberty is but a 
Phrafe and fignifies nothing,whcn any 
but your felves challenges the bene- 
fit of it. But if you would hear any 
more of the other, I muft: tell you 
the Independents were for fome punifh- 
ments though more mild than yours. 
For which I muft refer you to Mr. 
i^^^e!d^^jBurYoughs f {tinA not ftay to recite 
his words at length) who tells you 
men may be reftrained by Violence from 
publifliing grofs Errors, notwith- 


the Friendly Debate] ^^j 

{landing their plea of Confcience:and 
thatyiw^ trouble may be laid in their 
way who hold Errors of lefs moment, 
fofar as to take off the vpantonnefs of 
their fpirits and negle£t of means. Nay, 
where men by their iveaknefs render 
themfelves lefs ferviceabie to the 
Commonwealth or Church, he faith, 
they may hs dsnyed fome priviledgef 
granted to others : of which he gives 

N,a What? No refpedl to ten- 
der Confciences ? 

C. Yes. But if a man he proud and 
turbulent in his carriage and defpife hii 
betters , the fame Perfon tells you, 
you may be fur e the Devil is in his wiU, 
rather than in his Confcience. *^ For 
"though an erroneous confcience 
'< may caufe one to hold faft anError, 
" it doth not put him upon proud, 
*^ fcornful and turbulent behaviour. 
^* When a man by reafon of his Con- 
fcience (it may be the weaknefs of 
*' it) differs from his Brethren , he 
" had need carry himfelf with all hu- 
[^ mility and meeknefs , and felf de- 
Ff niall 

4^4 -^ Continuation of 

j..^ ^^niall in all things. Hefhould be 

c^ifder *^ willing to be a fervant to every man 

youfoTiol '* in wh^t lawfully he may : that 

this Rule, ^< thereby hemayftiew to all, that it 

who are fo ^ . /. • //• / /^ i 

perempto- " IS not trom any wufulnejSy but meer- 
pro^udAc. '* ly tenderneJ^o( his Confcience, that 
^' he cannot come ofF to that, which 
'^ his Brethren can do ; whom yet he 
*^ reverences, and in his carriage to- 
^^ wards them fliews , that he efteems 
^^them his betters. But if a man 
^^ that is weak , very much beneath 
'^others in Parts and Graces (he 
*' might have faid any one that dif- 
'^fents from the Generality of Chri- 
<^ftians, and his Governours where 
'^ he lives) fliall carry himfelf high, 
^' imperious , contemning and vilify- 
" ing thofe who differ from him , and 
*^ be contentious with them , there is 
*' great reafon to think the corrupti- 
*^on is in the will, rather than any 
'* where elfe. Andiftherefliouldbe 
^^ fome confcience yet in thofe men, 
^^ their heart dtflempers may juftly for- 
*<feit their right of pleading their con- 
*'fci€ncj, Thofe who oppofe them if 


the Friendly Debate] 43 j \ 

'^ they do it in a Chriftian way, nay 
*'juftifie what they do before God, 
*^ and fay to him, when he calls them 
'' to an account for their dealing fo 
'* with thofc that profefled Confci- 
*'ence; Lord, we were willing to 
** have dealt with them inalltender- 
*^ ncfs, if we could have feen confci- 
'^entioufnefs in their carriage; But 
Tvefaw nothing hut fcornfulnefsy pride, 
impertoufnefst turhulency, conceitednef?, 
tve could fie nothing of the Spirit ofje- 
fu4 Chrijl aBing them in their ivay'^,&cc»*Youmiy 
Thus he alfo refolves this quefl:ion,J^'^^f^|;j?^"* 
Hoip /hall we know a man to he ohftinate,^^^^^^' 
when he oppofes the judgment of many '^ 
more godly and learned than himfelf^ 
i.If heoppofethe common principles 
of Chriltianity. 2. If in other mat- 
ters his carriage be turbulent and al- 
together unbefecming a Chriftian, 
differing from his Brethren. 3. Where 
ithere is negleift of thofe means of In- 
formation , which he hath nothing 
to fay againft. Laftly, ]fhe fo crop 
\his own principles , that he appear to he , 
felf condemned'^. Think, I befeech ^ 
F f 2 you. 

43 tf A Continuation of 

you , whether this be not your cafe. 

i\7". C, 1 have a number of things to 
fay , but I fee you arc in haft, and 
therefore will let them alone. 

C. You may propound them fome 
other time> if upon confideration of 
thefe things you be not fatisfied. And 
to fave you and my felf any further 
labour , I fhall commend a few Di- 
redlions to you for the guiding of 
your confcience, and fo conclude. 

A^. C. Let's hear them. 

G. I cannot expedl you fliould 
bear any refpeCl: to my Advice; there- 
fore I will fpeak to you in another 
mans words ; which are fo good, that 
it's pitty they fliould be forgot. They 
were writ above threefcore years ago 
by Mr. Rich, Bernard , in a Book of 
his, where he teaches you how to car- 
ry your felf in a Church or State, fo 
as that you may feek the publick 
quiet of it*. 

N.C How I pray you? Ileftudy 
kdvSf hiscounfels. 
mentsand Q *^ Firft , maintain and uphold 

Counlels of , , , . . r n i i • • 

pwce,iM."all that jis manireltly good m it. 


the Friendly Debate. 437 

'^2. If there be any manifefl: evils, 
^^ labour in your place by the bcft 
^^ means to have them amended 
** peaceably. 3. Bear with lighter 
** faults For a time till a fit occafion 
^^be oflfered to have them amended. 
^'4. As for likelihoods of evil make 
** them not apparent evil by ill inter- 
'^ pretation ; where neither the State 
*^ intends it, nor fo maintains it. 
'^ 5. Take doubtful things ever in 
^^the better part. 6, Judicioufly 
*' difcern between the abufc of a thing 
^^ and that which may be well ufed : 
*^ left in abhorring the ahufe , thou 
'^ alfo do utterly condemn the thing 
'^ it felf and the ufe thereof 7.Let not 
^' theflourifliing condition (as thou 
^^ fancieft it ) of any Forain Church 
'* or State, make thee unthankful for 
^^ the prefent good thou enjoyeft at 
^* home , and loath thine own happi- 
''nefs. 8. Mark and hold the dif*- 
^^ ference between thefe things ; the 
^^ Equity of Law and the Execution; 
^' the truth Generally eftabliflied and 
'^profefled, and the perfonal Errors 
Ff3 ^fof 

A7Z -« Continuation oj 

'*of fome. Between foundnefs of 
** Dodlrine and bad Application ; be- 
^^ tween fubftance and circumftance ; 
*' between the very being of a thing, 
^^ and the well being of it ; between 
'' what is neceffary and what is only 
^^ convenient and defirable ; between 
*^ a Commandment andaCommand- 
^' ment to thee ; between what is 
^* lawful and what is expedient.p.Ne- 
'* ver prefume to reform others,before 
^^thou haft well ordered thy felf. 
'^ lo. Do not difobey the evident 
'^commandment of God : and when 
'^ there is nothing but probability 
^^ of finning in obeying the precept 
^' of thy Governors, donotfetopinl- 
'^ on before judgmxnt. Set afide fan- 
^'cy, and do notrefufcto obey Au- 
"thority, where it is notpLtiji thoa 
'^fhalt fin againft God. Bg more 
*^ loth to offend a lawful Magiftrate 
0;^ ** than many private perfons, 
' *^ Where thou canft not yield, there 
^^ humbly crave pardon. Where 
^^ thou canft not be tollerated , be 
^^ contented with Corredtion for fafe- 

'' ty 


the Friendly Debate. 439 

" ty of Confcience : and bear what 
^' thou canft not avoid, with a patient 
*' mind. Remember that to ftand 
^^ more upon avoiding diflike in pri- 
'^ vate pcrfons, than in offending the 
^' publick authority, is no better than "^ 
'^an humouring of men to increafe 
^^difcontentednefs, rather than to 
^^ prefcrvc the publick peace and wel- 
^^ fare. Nay/it is better to crofs fome 
'^ mens affe(5lions without fin toGod, 
^' than to negledl moft certain Duty, 
" let people perifli, open a gap to the 
^' enemy, lofe thy liberty, and no 
'^whit better the Church of God. 

N. C. O but in this we muft be 
very tender , and difobey men rather 
than God. 

C. You fliould be very tender and 
careful left you diCdbey both : by 
breaking the commands of your Go- 
vernors, when in fo doing you follow 
no command of God. For which 
end he gives you this Rule. -As thou 
'^mayftnotout of policy for fear of 
^^ trouble , furnifli thy felf with di- 
^^ftindlions and evade thy duty, 
F f 4 [[ where 

44 o -^ Continuation of 

" where the word is plain : fo thou 
^' oughteft not out of fcrupulofity to 
*^ imagine fin where there is none, 
^'and trouble thy Confcience with 
^*fear of tranfgrcfling , where there 
'^ is no Law. The one breeds ^theifm, 
^' the other is the mother of Superfii- 
'^ ^/W.Therefore in indifferent things 
'^make no queftion for confcience 
^^ fake : fo it be that neither holinefs, 
'^ merit, nor neceflity be put therein, 
^' nor ufed for any part of Gods wor- 
** fhip, but for Decency, Order and E- 

N,C. But what if I am in doubt; 
and afraid to ufe thefe things you call 
indifferent ? 

C.In this cafe he hath given you fuch 
good Directions that I need feek fcr 
no other. '* The fubftance of them 
*^ is this. You would do well to ex- 
'^ amine your felf whence yourDoubt 
^'arifes, whether from ferious confi- 
*' deration and a judgment convin- 
'^ced; or thatitbeonlyanicenefsof 
*' diflike , coming from a defire not 
^^ to be troubled with them , or for 

^' that 

the Friendly Debate. 44 i 

''that thou haft not been ufed to 
"them , or becaufe fome cannot 
** away with them, or from Ignorance 
** and want of knowledge, or perhaps 
**from a godly jealoufie and fear of 
** doing amifs (I may add from ana- 
** tural timoroufncfs and uncertainty 
** of mind which can refolve nothing.) 
'*If the ground be not a judgement 
^'inlightned and convinced, it is not 
^* trouble of confcience, but a diflike 
'' that works difcontcntednefs upon 
*^ fome of the former grounds ; which 
*' muft be removed by confideration 
" and fetling your judgment upon 
''the Word of God and found Rea- 
"fon. Nay, it will be fittoconfi- 
*^ der, whether this doubting do not 
*' arife through your own default, by 
"looking out Reafons to increafe ^ 
"your diflike, and neglecfl-ing to 
"fearch for Arguments to give you 
" fatisfacflion If this be your Cafe, 
'' as it is certain it is of too many, 
'^take as great pains to refolve your 
" felf as you have done to bring your 
^^ felf into doubting ; elfc you deal 

'' but 

44 2 ^ Continuation of 

^^ h^t partially. And have a care you 
*j, be not too highly conceited of your 
^^felf, and look upon your own rea- 
^'fons through the vapour of affc' 

N. C. My fcruples are- grounded 
upon this reafon ; that to make a 
thing lawful in Gods worfhip, it is 
not enough that it is not forbidden 
but it muft be commanded. 

C. Examine well without preju- 
dice what our Divines have replyed 
an hundred times to this , and you 
will find it an abfurd Principle. Or 
for the prefent onely weigh what he 
faith , *^ Why fliould a man be more 
'^fcrupulous to leek to have a plain 
'^ command for every thing he doth in 
^^ Ecclefiaftical matters , even about 
^^ things in themfelves indifferent, 
^^ than about matters politick in Ci- 
^' vil affairs ? Men in thefe matters 
*^know not the ground nor end of 
*^^many things which they yield 
^^ unto , upon a General command 
*^ to obey Authority ; and knowing 
^^them not to be direcStly againft 


the Friendly Debate. ^^a 

** Gods will. And yet our obedience 
'' in all Civil matters muft be^r// of 
**Confciencc , ^nd , fecondij/y as fer- 
*^ving the Lord; which cannot be 
^' without knowledge and perfwafion 
^^ that we do well even w that particu- 
<^ lar in which we obey : which men 
^^ ufually for confcience fake inquire 
^' not into y but reft themfelves vpuh 
^' a General comynnndment of obeying 
*' lawful Authority, fo it be not a- 
^* gainrt a plain commandment of 
^'God. What therefore doth let, 
^' but that a man may fo fatisHe him- 
^'felf in matters Ecclefiafticall ? I 
*^muft tell you (faith he) that the 
'' curious fearching fo particularly in- 
^' to every thing to have full fatis- 
^^fadl:ion, hath fo wrought inthefe 
^' days upon mens wits to bring di- 
^'ftincftions ; that the more men feek 
"in doubt for rcfolution , the fur- 
'^ ther they arc from it. 

N. C What fhall a man do 
then ? 

C. He muft obferve thefe Rules of 
that Good man. i. *' Keep all main 

'' Truths, 


444 ^ Contimation of 

'^Truths, which are moft plainly 
'^ fet down in the Word , or by the 
'* Law of Nature ingraven on every 
'^mans heart. 2. Believe every 
" thing truly and neceflarily gather- 
''cd, by an immediate confequence 
*'from the Text. 3. Follow evi- 
" dent examples fit for him cither as 
*'a Chriflian, or his fpecial calling 
*^ requires. 4. Avoid that which is 
^' plainly forbidden , or follows ne- 
ceflarily by an immediate confe- 
quence. 5". Follow true Antiqui- 
ty and the General pradtice of the 
^' Church of God in all ages , where 
^' theyhave not erred from the evident 
'' Truth of God. 6. If thou fufier- 
*^ eft ( faith he ) let it be for known 
" Truth and againft known wicked- 
''nefs; for which thou haft example 
^^ in Gods word, or of the holy Mar- 
^^ tyrs in Church ftory : But beware 
^^offarfetcht confequenceSj orof fuf- 
'^fcring for new devices, and for 
'^ things formerly unto all Ages un- 
*^ known , feem they never fo holy 
'^andjuft unto man. 

iV-.C. But 

the Friendly Debate ] 44 r 

A^. C. But what if the thing com- 
manded feem to me a fin ? 

c. '*Heanfwers, fome things fin* 
'^ fully commanded may be obeyed 
"^^ without fin, as J(!?^^ obeyed David 
** in numbering the People. Secondly, 
** Confider, how dofl: thou conceive 
" it to be fin ? Is it [imply fo ? Shew 
'^ me the Prohibition ; elfe where no 
'^ haw is there is no transgrejjion. Or 
" is it fo accidentally ? that is, in the 
*' abufe, which may be removed ; or 
^'inrefpecft of the Ignorance of the 
"Lawfulnefs, making thee to doubt 
*^ and fear to offend ^ life all dili- 
^^ gence for refolution. * And if it be 
" not a known fin to thee certainly 
** but only by probability ; confider, 
*' whether probability of finning may 
^' give thee a fufficient difchargefor 
** not obeying a plain Precept, and to 
" neglecft neceflary Duties otherwife, 
*^ both to God and man. 

N^.C, Would you have me do 
things while I am full of fcruples v^e- 
ther 1 may or no ? Doth not the Scrip- 
ture fay whatfoever is not of Faith is 
fw^ Rom. 14.25. C.Hc 

445 A Contimation of 

C. He tak^s no notice of that place; 
But fince you mention it Tie give you 
Mr. John an Anfwcr, not from my felf, whofe 
lucionof judgment you value not much, but 
i^cenferby ftom a Divine who, we are told, fuf- 
^rd^T64f. ^i^cd much under the Bifhops. Things 
wherein doubts arife, faith he, are of 
a double Nature. Firft, '^ fuch as are 
^' merely drhitrary and at my own dif- 
"pofe. Thefe may be left undone 
^' without fcruple, but not done with 
^^ it ; bccaufe the inconvenience of 
'' Omiffion is but a little felffufFer- 
'^ ing. Suchare the things the Apo- 
^^ftie fpeaks of; forbearing theufe 
^^ of our Liberty in eating flefh,or the 
^' like cafe. If a man doubt whether 
'^ he may do that, or whether he may 
*^ play at Tables or Cardsjthe omiffi- 
*^'on here being no more but only de- 
^' nying our felves a little contcnt,the 
*' doubt fliould make a man forbear. 
^' But then there are other things that 
"are not arbitrary but under a com- 
"-^mi^nd , as coming to the Sacr-ament, 
"' obedience to the higher powers in 
" things lawfuL Now if fcruples arife 

^* about 

the Friendly Debate. 447 

^' about thefe, and a man doubts he 
*^ lins if he a5i, and he alfo doubts he 
** fins ii' he forbear ; it is neither clear 
*^that the thing to be done is finful, 
'' and fo to be forborn, nor perfecflly 
^^ clear that it is a duty and foto be 
*^ done : h thU cafe he muft weigh the 
^^ Scales ; and where the Soul apprehends 
^^ mo ft weight ofreafon, that way he muft 
*' incline ; though the other fcale be not 
*^ altogether empty. And this done after 
'^ humble and diligent fearch, with 
^* bewailing our infirmity that we are 
*^ no more difcerning, will be accep- 
'^ ted of God. God puts not his people 
^^ on necejjity of (inning ; nor can our 
*^ fcruples dijpenfe with hfs commands. 

N. C. Sometime I think this is 
clear and folid Reafon ; but many 
Friends think otherwife, and I am 
loth to ofifend them by doirxg thefe 
things which our Governors require. 

C. But confider, '^ Firft, they may 
*'take oflfence when none is given, Bem.coun- 
'' and then the fault is their own, and ^^^^^^^^^ 
^' you not chargable therewith. Se- 
*^ condly, the Queftion is whether they 


ij.48 ^ CmtimiUm of 

^^ be offended in refpc(5l of what them- 
^^ felves know, or but led by afiedti- 
'*on, diflikingof other mens diflike. 
^' Intreat the former to let thee a- 
'^ bound, for fuch things, in thy own 
'* fenfe ; and fhew them that herein 
'"^you may Brotherly difagree: for 
^* the latter, inform their judgment, 
^^ if they will yield to reafon : If not, 
^^then confider. Thirdly, whether 
*^^ thou art bound to nourifli up fuch 
^^ men in their folly and to refpe(5l 
^' their partial affedlion ; being more 
*^ carried away with an overweening 
^^of fome mens perfons, than any 
^^ thing at all with the right under- 
^'ftanding of the caufe. And then, 
^' Fourthly y confider the power of the 
. ^< Magiftrate and whether his Autho- 
^^ rity commanding do not take away 
^'theofTence which might otherwife 
'* be given by a voluntary AcH:. And, 
^^ Lajtly, that a man fliould not ftand 
*^ more upon avoiding diflike in pri- 
^* vate perfons, than offence to pub- 
*< lick Authority ; as I faid before. 
But alas ! as he faith at the end of 


the Friendly Debate. '449 

his Book*, '^Charity and fuch like , heparan, 
'•^ graces are far to feek now adaies.^chirmad 
" Men on all hands judg of things per- the"othe? 
'^vcrfly. This they will allow, and^' '^^' 
'^that again homouroufly they will 
^' not like. That which may be juftly 
" done well without oflfence, thereat 
•'will others be unjuftly offended. 
*' Things doubtful, men take Hnifter- 
** ly ; yea they dare cenfure what they 
'* never faw : condemn as ill, what 
" they knew not : fufpedl where they 
*^ have n*o caufe : gain-fay, where 
*^ there ought to be no contradicflion, 
'* partial to themfelves and rigorous 
•'toward others. Authority will rule 
*' thus and fo, Subjedts will obey with 
"Exceptions. Judgment from the 
*' word is not fo much a Guide, as will 
*' and affe(5lion in too many are made 
*< Matters. Thcfe be ill dayes and 
** contentious : unhappy times , in 
'* which men either will do, that they 
'" will do of themfelves ; or elfe fall 
" to humour parties ( not {imply re- 
*' ceiving a love of the truth for the 
G g ^^ truths 

2,^0 A Cmtinmtion of 

*' truths^ fake ) and fo come to per- 
''takings, which doth but increafe 
*' contention, till all come to confu- 
*'fion: except the Lord in his great 
'* mercy prevent the fame. 

N. C. And turn us all to a more 
moderate courfe, and there keep us. 

C. You have read the Book : for 
thofe are the words that follow. 

N, C. No. But I think there is 
much of truth in what he fayes: and 
it had been well if his Counfels had 
been then followed. • 

C. Alas ! they who were chiefly 
concerned in them, were fo far from 
following them, that they took no 
farther notice of them than only to 
revile him that wrote them. 

i\r. ^. Me thinks none /hould be fo 

C, It is as I tell you. Mr. Ainf- 
vfiOYth making an anfwer to this Book, 
wholly omitted theft Counfels ofPeaccy 
fave only that he once mentioned 
them, with this haughty ctn{\xxG,that 
perhaps the Author knew no more than 


the Friendly Dehu , 4SL 

Caiphas n>h^t hefaid. Such men will 
not grant us able to fay any good 
thing -. 

Iv, c. But this was an acknowledg- 
ment the things were obfervable. 

C. True, but you fee the men of 
that Spirit will not regard excellent 
things, iftheybefaid by thofcwhom 
they do not love. Mr. Bernard in his 
reply I think hath given a true defcrip- preface to 
tion of them. Schifmaticks are head- f^^^^^^^ 
fironjs^t they will not fee evident conviBi- Anfwer to 
on. Self-love makes them judge the hefi fpeech si 
ofthemfelvesy hut their want of Charity y^'^^f^^ 
very badly of others, they beguile ^^^^"b'^uJho!^ 
f elves withjhews of Piety, heat ofaffe^i- rity. 1610. 
on, and with a ftrong apprehenfion of 
things greatly ami(^ in others, thefe 
they can fee with both eyes, themfelves 
with neither. Our arguments againfl 
them are Paper floot : but their weakefl 
reafons againfi wi ( if themfelves may 
judg ) are /hot of Cannon, They dejpife 
every mans endeavour againfl them, and 
larein admiration of their own works, 
^Let any man confer with them, and he 
G g 2 Shall 

452 A Continuation of 

/hall hear it: I my felfhave fujficient 
experience of it. jill oppofing their tvay, 
are men, in their judgment, that haut 
no grace, reheUious againft the Light, 
They are prefumptuous in cenfuring ; and 
may give fentence againft all men and 
all Churches in the World ; hut none may 
give judgment of them. I heartily wifh 
you all lejs pride and more humtlity ; 
lefsdijlike of others, and more charity, 
with greater dijlike of your felves : the 
want whereof U the prefent enemy to 
lovely Unity y that ever accompanies true 
Piety ; which many pretend, but few 
truly enjoy. And fo farewell. 

N.c. Do you hear? pray come 

c. Will you never have done? 
what's the matter now ? 

iV. C, I have but one word more. 
Yo'i muft not pafs too hard a cenfure 
upon fome Minifters who come not 
to Church. You know they cannot 
appear openly becaufe ofthe Acft 
which forbids them to be in Cities, 
Market-Towns, SJ'c. 


the Friendly Debate^. 4"^ j 

C. And yet they are there notwith- 
{landing that Adt, and kept meetings 
againft another Aifl which was lately 
in force. Why may they not appear 
any where in thofe places as well as 
in one ? In God's houfe as well as 
their own or yours ? In the face of all 
the people, as well as before a party 
feparatcd from the reft ? You are a 
fine Advocate indeed : who now have 
confeffed they are more afraid of the 
punijhment (whatfoever they fay) 
than of the Sin of difohedience. For 
they break the Law wherefoever they 
are in thofe prohibited Cities or 
Towns> and they would but break it, ^ 
if they were at Church : only it would 
be lefs 

N, C, I will ftay you no longer. 
I did not think of this, when the other 
came into my mind. 

C. I believe it. You are not wont 
to lay things together, and then 
fearch them to the bottom. But you 
think as you talk ; fuddenly, in a 
rambling manner, without any cohe- 
G g 5 rence : 

^ ^|4 A Continuation of 

rence: which would never trouble 
me at all ( you may think and fpeak 
as you pleafe ) if you were not fo con- 
ceited of your felves, as if you were 
the moft knowing people, that muft 
give Law and Religion to all others. 

M C. There are thofe can talk as 
well as you. 

C No doubt of it. Let them there- 
fore endeavour to mend the reft. And 
remember them of fuch paflages as 
thefe in your Books, which once they 
allowed of. No man endued with right 
. *i u c ^ r Re a f on , hut mil Cay 

An Alarm by wav or Anlwcr to •' , ' J y 

the laft warning piece, p. 15, Li- there u d necefjity of a 

cenfedbyMr.John DcAvnain, with ^^ -r- r 

this fentence pri-fixed. Ye fliall LtOVemment I if Of a 
have one Ordinance, both for r'^rT,^*^^^^^.^* *L»^ ^^ ^ ^ 

the ftranger, and for him that is Ciovernment, then of an 
bommtheund. Uniformity y elfeitmli 

he confufed. Therefore there if anecefji- 
ty to Pppreji all CONVENTI- 
CLES; and that all men jhould oh- 
ferve fuch Order, Time, Flace, and 
ptihlick Gefturey as the Farli^ment 
( hy the Advice of the jiffembly ) jhall 
appoint. And no man that hath any 
ufeof Conference in any thing but will: 


the Friendly Debate. 45T 

acknowledge he u hound in Confcience to 
obey the Laws of the Land in which he 
lives, in all indifferent things : Or he 
u turbulent and deferves cenfure, even 
for matters concerning Worfinp^ He 
that hath the ufe of Confcience^ will 
muke Confcience of the duties of both Ta- 
bles, 04 well as one, there is doubt- 
le(ia Confcience towards God, and a 
Confcience towards man \ This was the 
Apoftlespra^ice, and muft be our Rule, 
Adl. 24. 16. lexercife my f elf to have 
alwayes a Confcience void of offence, to* 
ward God and toward Men. Once 
more Farewel. 
N.C. I thank you. 

THE E^HJ).^ 


PAgc p<5. Line 1$. dtlt but, p. 2(58. 1. 4.r. to 
he condemned, p. 2.82. 1. penult, dele toUch, 
p.288.1.ult.r./w<i»w^r/. p. 322. 1. 22. r. metbinki. 
^»'^xiA,'],T, ferijhed» p. 341. 1. 15. fork r. 1/. p, 
362. 1.20. t,to vahicb* p, i<i8» 1. p. r. be* p, 430, 


PAge 21. line ip. r. their offence, p. 21. 1. 23. r. for nuant p.jg. 1 
1. 21. r. / conjider. p. 34. 1. 1. r. w«t^. p. sd. 1. 10. r. couJd» 
p. 6"!. 1. 20. r. ri^wV makers, p. 71. 1. 25. r. confBs. p. 78. 1. 17. 
r.jpread before you. p. 20(5* 1. 23. dele c/»//. p.2ip. 1. 7. for^^o«t 
r. /i^^w. p. 250. 1. 1^. r. ««/^ tell us, p. 254. 1. 8. r, bring, p. 27P« 
I. p. r.underBanding, p. 282. 1. ult.r,^«i. p. 287. 1. 5. Marg, r. 
id37. P* 2.8p. 1. 24. r. ApoSlk,^. 2p8. 1. 6, r. t% ^/i^/^t. p. 313. 
!.2i.a4<i, o«r. p. 335. 1. 5. r. <ro»rff«tw«j.p. 3(55. 1. 11. r,prefacer» 
p, 382. 1. 23. r. prefacer, p. 405« !• 13. r. '»^9 *i5'^7^* P* 424, !• i6* 
r. that fay. 








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